New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable

[Sombre]

I just thought I'd make this thread to express how much I'm enjoying the new nations. While they are powerful they haven't given people fits about balance (yet) which I think is partly because they aren't too powerful in an /unfun/ way and they are extremely enjoyable to play as. The sheer amount of content to be found in them is pretty amazing and the graphics are some of KO's best work to date.

I wasn't that keen on Tirnanog and Eriu when they first came out but I've found that every single new nation has grown on me and they really do put some of the older ones to shame in terms of overall quality.

[llamabeast]

I'm glad you made this thread Sombre, as I was just about to do something similar!

And yeah, the new nations really are quite exceptional. Good work KO!

[Omnirizon]

I think the new nations benefit from the power inflation phenomenon (I just invented that term seen in all gaming.

take AD&D, for instance, when it was first released it had a basic lineup of stuff. Soon the devs were releasing more and more material that tends to be a little more powerful than the original stuff. Handbooks with specialized classes, spells, equipment, and all that stuff. Things that cater to the interests that arose in the fanbase.

I think the newer stuff in dom3 follows the same pattern. it seems a little more specialized, and capitalizes on the meta-game and playstyles present in the community; with the game having been around for some time this kind of knowledge became available to the devs, and it influenced they way they created the newer nations.

[MaxWilson]

Omnirizon said:
I think the new nations benefit from the power inflation phenomenon (I just invented that term seen in all gaming.

Do you really think so? Fomoria, Eriu and Tir Na N'og aren't weak but Fomoria is no Niefelheim (straightforward brute power) and Eriu is no Helheim (ditto). I suspect you're thinking of Hinnom/Ashdod (and maybe Lanka from a while back), and that's not enough to support a trend.

I do think it's possible that KO's love for the source material led to stuffing a lot of stuff into Hinnom/Ashdod, which may need to be balanced by a gcost fix at some point. KO has said before that gcost tends to come at the end of unit design as a secondary issue.

-Max

[Ming]

I enjoy the new races immensely too and would like to join in expressing my appreciation to the developers.

[JimMorrison]

Omnirizon said:
I think the new nations benefit from the power inflation phenomenon (I just invented that term seen in all gaming...

In MMO circles, the term used is MUDflation, since in MUDs and MMOs you see the most rapid and blatant inflation, due to people devouring all the content, and then begging for more.

As has been stated above, the devs do seem to be doing a good job with the relative strengths, as in a game that has end points, there is no need to inflate the system at all. I'd wager that if in the next month or so the new nations start to win a suspicious % of their games, that there will be an alteration of their strengths/weaknesses to bring them more in line with the rest of the game. As it is, there's enough feedback I wouldn't doubt a small change already, but there may be hesitation to see how well they actually mesh in MP first.

I have to say, I took over LA Gath in KingMaker, and while I have interesting options and strengths to exploit, I cannot see how anyone could possibly call them overpowered. Ashdod is a little stronger in my eyes, but most nations look stronger to me in their MA incarnations. Hinnom is a beast, and I can see small changes being reasonable - but they really do pay for their early game advantage with a challenging struggle to the late game, due to difficulty exploiting research, difficulty effectively blood hunting while eating everyone, and difficulty having the scales needed for late game while gaining the bless desired for early game.

I think MOST (not all, just most) of the people who refer to Hinnom as "too strong", have mostly only seen them in the early game, and haven't seen how their weaknesses become more and more apparent as the game progresses.


And wow, this is sort of OT, grrrrr. I just wanted to express my own appreciation of the new content as well. The great thing - to me - about new nations, is you don't even have to play them in a game to benefit from the addition, as interacting with them as an opponent adds just as much to the variety and enjoyment.

<3

[Gandalf Parker]

Being a MUD admin almost from their birth I have some experience there. MUDflation is a well known phenomenon. To break down some of the many MANY discussions amoung MMO admins..
there tend to be 3 types of "fixers" in MMO gods. Additive (keep making more and bigger armor and euqipment, then fix that with more and bigger monsters). Subtractive (or nerfer) which goes the other direction. And Balance who tries to trim both top and bottom but can look like a person trying to make a perfect circle by cutting a piece of paper taking snips off until they end up with a dot (their balance efforts meet in the very bland middle).

The best results IMHO is that this is one subject where committee works. An MMO head who is willing to hire without giving in to personal feelings about additive, subtractive, and balancer. But is willing to hire them all and allow them to do continual "battle" in the code allowing the game to go up and down continually.

On the other hand I am AMAZED at how well this game does with so few developers. Not just because they are doing all the work, but because they seem able to not give in to being just one type of fixer.

[MaxWilson]

Concur. I really like Bogarus' ability to creep me out in a realistic way. Even though I haven't been played them, I enjoy encountering them in the game. I LOVE the flavor of Hinnom even though I don't play them (blood magic and cannibalism is too much for me). Definitely the most evil race. I get a huge kick out of the historical and mythological allusion behind Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath. Haven't done much with Fomoria or Tir na N'og yet (still haven't finished exploring 50% of the game).

"Hinnom eats everything!" is such a fantastic meme.

-Max

[Sombre]

I don't see how Hinnom are the most evil race. Their rulers are pretty nasty but the majority of the population are enlightened avvim who come across as semi divine superhumans.

Would people consider Ogre Kingdoms or Mictlan to be evil? They're just continuing their native culture, usually at the expense of other cultures - something all dom3 nations do.

[MaxWilson]

I tend to identify a nation with its rulers. The Avvim are the oppressed peasants and I long to set them free and bring them to enlightenment.

-Max