PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Hi all,

After playing for a few months now, it seems to me that the PPB (Phased Polaron beam) is the best weapon by far in this game, but that it unfortunately unbalances the game. (this applies mostly to PBW multiplayer)

Missiles are useless (as discussed in other threads) because PD is too cheap and strong.
Same for fighters.
DUC's: I start with them but don't bother to research em to level 5, I go straight for Physics 2 and PPB's. I can usually avoid any wars until I have the PPB. It devastates any opponent who went with shields in stead of armor, and it takes a long time before you get worthwile levels of phased shields (3 and up).

Even in the late game (turn 80 upwards) I stick with PPB. I find they outgun graviton beams, rippers, and even WMG's.
I base this on direct-fire attack ships, the bulk of my fleets. Other weapons might be useful in very specialised circumstances (e.g. a battle station with rippers, or a boarding ship with shield depleters). But in order to do most damage, consistently, in large battles, stick with PPB's.

Numbers: don't just look at damage per kiloton ratio's, but look at damage per kiloton per combat turn. A wave-motion gun III (tough to research) has a better damage/kiloton (size) ration than a PPB, but only fires once every three turns. In three turns an enemy ship with PPB's will have done more damage than it's counterpart with WMG's. (ignore chance to hit ratios etc since that depends on sensors etc, not on weapon type). Range? sure a WMG has more range, but does that matter in large fleet battles in strategic combat? Even if you use maximum weapons range, you usually can't shoot and then move away far enough for the enemy (with PPB) to be unable to catch up to you while you reload.

Conslusion: this is not good. It's boring for me to stick to the same weapon throughout an entire game, having found after much experimentation that other ship designs are inferior. I tried missile ships, I tried battleships with the tractor/graviton/repulser combo, etc.
The only thing that comes close is a battleship loaded with Rippers and set to point-blank strategy. Other special weapons (like bio bombs) are nice ideas but only remotely useful in the first 20 turns or so, when you can quickly infect a planet using one to three ships. Later, it's either glass em or capture em.

Am I missing something here?
Your comments are welcome !

Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.

Now what I'd really like to know is how range to target affects your chance to hit, and if this is different for each weapon. Where can I find more info / stats on that?
Thanks,
Dragonlord

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Sounds like you are in need of a MOD.

Check out the Damage Factor List I created. It specifies the Damage rating for each weapon in Standard SE4. (Damage/Kt/turn), as well as pointing out accuracy bonuses & damage types.

In P&N,
-there are Quad2Shield missiles, +15% upto +25% accuracy torpedoes, while beamweapons do more damage.
-PDCs are divided into "normal" strength PDCs (max range = 2) and half-damage PDLs (max range = 7)
-phased weapons are weaker than their normal counterparts, and available in three flavors(phased beams, torps & missiles). The normal weapon tech must be researched along with "phased weapons" in order to get your PPBs.
-phased shields alternate with normal shields (Phased is marginally stronger, but one techlevel higher)
-and finally, armor is stronger than shields (but takes ages to repair after battle)

All these should help reduce your dependence on any one type of weapon and/or defense.


As for a dreadnaught? Try this beast on for size!
The thing can absorb 92% of incoming Null-Space weapons harmlessly, and with multiple backup systems, the remaining 8% will not destroy any critical systems.
It is basically impervious to Shield disruptors and Tachyon cannons.

The P&N v2 Version of this ship will also have 40 engines (meaning ion beams will have little effect), plus Biocrystal armor instead of HMSGs, giving it invulnerability to normal mount guns, and extreme resistance to even Heavy mounts.

I really like the "totally invisible to the naked eye of most species" part: +108% defense http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
All this for the low, low price of $100,000 minerals http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 01 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:Hi all,

After playing for a few months now, it seems to me that the PPB (Phased Polaron beam) is the best weapon by far in this game, but that it unfortunately unbalances the game. (this applies mostly to PBW multiplayer)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That they are. I neutered them a bit in Techmod..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Missiles are useless (as discussed in other threads) because PD is too cheap and strong.
Same for fighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need a really, REALLY large number to get through in any level of effectiveness, so yeah, you'd normally be better off with other weapons.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even in the late game (turn 80 upwards) I stick with PPB. I find they outgun graviton beams, rippers, and even WMG's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's partially because High Energy Discharge isn't worth the research points, and is weak overall. Still, PPB Vs are almost as good as APB 12s, which is..odd.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Numbers: don't just look at damage per kiloton ratio's, but look at damage per kiloton per combat turn. A wave-motion gun III (tough to research) has a better damage/kiloton (size) ration than a PPB, but only fires once every three turns. In three turns an enemy ship with PPB's will have done more damage than it's counterpart with WMG's. (ignore chance to hit ratios etc since that depends on sensors etc, not on weapon type).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, chance to hit DOES factor in. Why? WMGs get a to-hit bonus, PPBs do not. Still not worth it though.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Conslusion: this is not good. It's boring for me to stick to the same weapon throughout an entire game, having found after much experimentation that other ship designs are inferior. I tried missile ships, I tried battleships with the tractor/graviton/repulser combo, etc.
The only thing that comes close is a battleship loaded with Rippers and set to point-blank strategy. Other special weapons (like bio bombs) are nice ideas but only remotely useful in the first 20 turns or so, when you can quickly infect a planet using one to three ships. Later, it's either glass em or capture em.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do remember that bio bombs only need one hit, and most populations reallt dislike being plagued..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Personally, I stop at Battlecruiser..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now what I'd really like to know is how range to target affects your chance to hit, and if this is different for each weapon. Where can I find more info / stats on that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Range is a flat 10% per square, I think. Easiest way to check is fire up tactical combat, control both sides, and check yout %s as you close (make sure to turn on display hit %s!)

Techmod lowers the High Energy Discharge to the same place as PPBs, and makes it easier to get phased shields (though normal shields are more powerful). Wham, bam, instant less-useful PPBs. I also increased the research cost for PPBs.

Phoenix-D

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember that for every ship you will need a set of bridge/CQs/LSs or MC. You will also need combat sensors, ECMs, long range jammer, self destruct device/anti-boarding parties etc. So if you have a larger hull you can fit in more firepower and spend less space (in the fleet) on "supporting" equipment. I personally don't find the slightly slower speed of a dreadnought to have much of a negative effect in my games, but I do find baseships to be too slow and yak! -40% to defense! So I only use them for non-combat and specialised roles.

[edit] Don't let me find any more typo please! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I have never got bored with this game. So you have found a weapon that in a 1 on 1 ship battle would beat almost any other ship. How many times do you have 1 on 1 ship battles?

Wars in real life, and in Se4, aren't won by technology alone. Tactics, initiative, economics, logistics. All those are what keeps things interesting. And those change from player to player and game to game.

Personally I get more wrapped up in those things and often lose track of what weapons my ships have on them. Sometimes this hurts me and I end up losing a battle, or winning with heavier casualties than anticipated. But concentrating on building a strong economy, and aggresive tactics that keep your opponent reacting instead of acting, will make up for a lot of tech defecincies in the long run.

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

..which still doesn't change the fact that any weapon other than PPB is really just wasting time and research in most cases.

BTW, what was up with Shrapnel earlier? I couldn't get through.

Phoenix-D

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Exactly.
I agree with both geoschmo and Phoenix.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

There was a time when I had never researched anything bigger then a battlecruiser...

until the PBW game where I saw one of my neighbors fielding fleets of double digit numbers of baseships.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I know what you mean Capnq. And those baseships (from one race) were armed with APB XII and Phased Shields V. went around munching PPB fleets.

Then there was that other race that had smaller ships without PPB that ate PPB fleets for breakfast. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by Rich04 (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Rich, could you be more specific about that fleet of smaller ships? If they won battles it was presumably due to combat bonuses (small=harder to hit) and numbers?
Because in my experience the only thing that kills my PPB fleets is an enemy with a fleet that is twice as large and has significant (30+) combat bonuses, either racial or through ship/fleet exp. With enough bonuses even a dozen LC's with DUC's can do serious damage, if they are impossible to hit...

FYI, my fleets are usually 35 to 50 ships, with 35% being PPB Battleships (for the heavy mount), 35% PPB Battlecruisers (shorter build time) and 30% support ships (sweepers, repair and fuel ships) with a fleet speed of 10 (11 if I have propulsion experts).

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With enough bonuses even a dozen LC's with DUC's can do serious damage, if they are impossible to hit...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I wonder what you are referring to http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.

Anyway, IMHO the best weapon in the game is the DUC. I have seen empires crumble into dust (others as well as mine) before the PPB became a factor in the game. Of course the best weapon of choice largely depends on your enemy, but if everybody is using phased shields I think a combination of SD+DUC is superior to just PPB.
Otherwise I fully agree with Dragonlord the PPB is the best mid- to end-game weapon choice and if not unbalancing, it is at least redundant. IMHO the PPB needs some tweaking. It should not increase in power so fast. The biggest advantage is that you only need 5 levels to get it to full power. Maybe 8 or 10 would be more appropriate. If you extend the tech field to 12, you could get even better PPB than the current PPB V.

Just my 0.02

Rollo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course the best weapon of choice largely depends on your enemy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bingo! Even PBB have weaknesses. If I knew you were relying on them exclusivley, I could beat you even in a one on one ship combat by making a ship designed to defeat it's weanesses. I would use phased shields, or no shields. I would use a weapon with more range than a PBB, like APB, or a Wave motion gun, and I would set my strategy to max range. You would be toast. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

No one weapon is the best in the game. Some are better then others in specific areas. Some are better overall, but not as good as others in specific areas.

I've said it before. Space Empires is a great big complicated Version of "rock paper scissors" man. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

In fact, Dragonlord, or Phoenix or anybody for that matter. He's a challenge for you. Post your best PBB ship design. Or if you have a different Uber weapon, post a design using that. I bet I can come up with a way to beat it at least 5 out of 9 combats. And I'll do it with either an single ship, or an equal total tonnage of smaller ships.

Now the point of this is too prove that there is no ultimate weapon, so don't submit a ship with some PBB's and a bunch of other weapons too, or then you're proving my point. Although I will accept a ship with PBB's and PDC, since PBB's can't target missles. (That would be too easy for me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )

If you are used to putting all your PDC into separate ships, go ahead and list your fleet makeup. I'll beat it again with an equal number of ships, or an equal tonnage of smaller ships.

For the purposes of the challange we will eliminate experience since that is not something you can build into the design, and if one side can do it, the other side can too, so it's a wash.

The point of this is not that I am a better ship designer than anybody else. The designs that I build will be just as beatable, maybe more so cause they will be specifically designed to defeat a particular enemy.

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I have to agree that the PPB can be devastating in most situations. Using it in a solo game against AI opponents feels like cheating. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Maybe Phased-energy weapons should be made a racial tech? If it costs some racial development points to be able to use then it will be less unbalancing. Other than this change, I think some improvements in armor technology might help to balance this. I would still really like to see Emissive armor changed to have a "total per turn" limit on the energy it can absorb. Right now, all emissive armor becomes useless when cruisers appear because the large mount doubles all weapon damage and out-classes emissive armor. Setting the limit higher and higher makes ships "invulverable" to more and more powerful weapons which has its own unbalancing effects. This "all or nothing" approach just doesn't make sense. If there were a total damage per-turn limit possible you could set the damage resistance of emissive armor higher without making ships totally invulnerable. Then emissive armor could be a really useful defense against the PPB. Crystalline and Organic armor make good counter-measures aready, btw.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Sure Dragonlord. Actually in that game PPBs never made any differance except in battles vs NPC,s. Phased Shield V's showed up very quick. The race I didn't give more details on was using Organic Tech which was maxed out so its weapons and armor helped a lot. Another race was using tons of Null Space weapons.
The biggest drawback to PPB's is their range. This will hamper them even in huge 50+ ship fleets. If a game gets to the point when efficient long range weapons show up APB's, WMG's, etc. PPB's ,though still powerfull, can be taken out with the better weapons.
Even Null Space (Which are fairly easy to get) will come out ahead once Phased Shields show up.(Though that fight would be messy).
I got out of the habit of using PPB's because they were so easy to abuse the NPC's with. This had a secondary effect. I got good at beating PPB's.
There are a number of good AI's people have designed using PPB's. Try playing a game without using PPB's and add a number of good AI races (TDM Modpack has several) that do uses them (and some others for spice). It makes things really interesting (especially if you also don't use mines). After a while you start to see ways of beating PPB ships.

I was curious. In SE3 the PPB's had an Achilles heel. Emmisive Armor could totally negate PPB's and APB's (except at point blank range). This would be hard to duplicate is SE4 because of weapon mounts.


[This message has been edited by Rich04 (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I have to disagree on the whole PPB thing, for me they are definitly NOT the best weapon in the game. Major weakness is range, IMO the best weapon is the Ionic weapons, destroy a targets engines and he is toast, combine this with either WMG or Grav or Acid Globs (Mental Singularity also works, albit a bit slowly) and the ship is toast. I am in a game right now where my neighbor has religious tech ships, Talisman with Engine destroyers and a few Acid Glob weapons, in sim battles his cruisers toast my BaseShips that have level 5 PPB (they also have 3000+ phased shields, Solar Sail and extra movement racial bonus.)...

Not too fond of the engine destroying missiles but the beams IMO are the best weapon....In fact I think they are too overpowered, ROF maybe needs to be 2 instead of 1, and the Weapon destroying weapons are quite good as well, the major bonus of these is that they skip all shields and armor and just destroy their target, unlike Null-space that has inferior range, too high cost and just takes out random components.

Just my usual ramblings...... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

------------------
"And what the hell would you know about sanity?" demanded Beatrice. "There are depressed lemmings on the edge of cliffs who've got a better grasp on reality than you have. And more common sense."--Simon R. Green 'Deathstalker Rebellion'.

"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

"Memory," the old man said softly, "is tricky. I have learned two things from it. One: That without meaningful memories, there is no life. Two: that we are desperate for our lives to make sense, to have meaning,--and at a great enough remove , all memory is malleable." -Michelle West 'Sea of Sorrows', SunSword book IV.

[This message has been edited by Deathstalker (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If there were a total damage per-turn limit possible you could set the damage resistance of emissive armor higher without making ships totally invulnerable. Then emissive armor could be a really useful defense against the PPB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was curious. In SE3 the PPB's had an Achilles heel. Emmisive Armor could totally negate PPB's and APB's (except at point blank range). This would be hard to duplicate is SE4 because of weapon mounts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In SE3, Emissive armor negated the first X points of damage per hit, and if the first piece of armor was destroyed, the next one negated another X points of damage.

A stack of EA 5's in SE3 would have the following effect:
1 DMG: no damage, 1 pt ignored
2 DMG: no damage, 2 pts ignored
3 DMG: no damage, 3 pts ignored
4 DMG: 1 Armor Destroyed
5 DMG: 1 Armor destroyed, 4 pts ignored
7 DMG: 1 Armor destroyed, 6 pts ignored
8 DMG: 2 Armor destroyed, 6 pts ignored.

Those were the days...

It was like Crystalline armor, but didn't require shields, and only the components that were damaged stacked their bonuses.

For a "damage-per-turn limit" use organic armor with unlimited regen. It will "emiss" all the damage done to it (rounded down to the nearest segment) unless you destroy all of it. You'd need to limit the amount on a ship while still having more than one component, but it could work.

The "holes in the armor" effect was pretty cool too. There was a chance that weapons fire could go through a hole left by a destroyed armor segment, and hit internals.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

What bothers me about PPBs is this:

APB research cost to max:
1,677,500
PPB to max:
290,000

That's with the extra level of physics included.

Making it worse is the cost of shields. At max normal shields, you have good effectiveness against the APB, but nothing against the PPB. To get maxed shield protection against the PPB, you have to go through multiple layers of weaker shields, or take armor. So a player that researchs PPB V and Shield V is going to be significantly better off research wise against a player that uses, say, APBs.

Other weapons like Wave Motion Guns, you say? Well, to get WMGIIIs you need 4,212,500 research points! Then, just for the icing, if the PPB player can close to short range..he'll OUTDAMAGE you over time (so will the APB ship, for that matter). Ripper beams do decent damage, but are outranged- Ripper IVs do 50 damage out to range 3, PPBs 60-50 damage out to range 6. So 2 PPBs vs. 3 Rippers.. 120 damage vs 150 damage. That's at point-blank range.

Missiles are easily countered by PD weaponry. Torpedos? Decent, but like the WMGs are outdamaged.

Meson BLasters? 30 damage at max, so for 3 mesons vs 2 PPBs: 90vs120 damage at point blank, 90vs100 damage at max. Mesons will set you back 510,000 research points, as well.

Null-space? Very cheap (187,000), decent damage, skips everything. Decent alternative, but the fire rate is still nothing to write home about, and not at all cheap to build. Plus for every 3 Null-space cannons, you can mount 5 PPB/APBs, which goes a long way to offsetting the null-space's advantages.

Phoenix-D

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

its all in the ballance. i always thought the temporal thing that did 4x to shields was cool.. it did a fair ammount of damage, and you didnt have to worry about buying shield depleters AND regular weapons, and then ordering them properly, and being screwed up when you change targets..

ppbs are fine early on, but as soon as phased shields come into play, or if there are organic races out there, they dont help much. so you will have to switch to another kind of weapon if you want to cause any hurting, which means reasearching another tree. so you are paying the research cost of the ppbs PLUS that of whatever you are going to switch to. as opposed to the guy that started out researching towards WMGs or fighters or something.

you have 4 basic kinds of attacks as far as im concerned, thats not counting long range / short range and movement tactics. you can go for the high damage early on, and bLast with a slow recharging WMG or psychic singularity or something. or you can go for smaller dammage that pays off over time, compensating with numbers of ships or higher protection values. Third, you can go for saturation attacks where you load up huge ammounts of missiles and fighters, and stand off at your max range and hope to overwhelm their PD.

Lastly, you can blow up their sun and/or planet

but i find a balance is best, having capital ships with heavy hitting weapons. also having lighter ships or fighters that can move in and inflict damage every turn while the big guns recharge.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

The thing is, PPBs are so cheap- and almost as effective as APB XIIs- that you really don't need another direct fire weapon. Certainly no reason to research APBs or Meson BLasters..

Phoenix-D

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
CSM V: 0.8, seeker
MB: 1.75, normal
AMT V: 0.625, normal
QT V: 1.25, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker
PDC V: 3.25, pointdefence, +70%
PPB V: 2.0 - 1.67, phased
RB IV: 2.5, normal
IB III: 0.9, normal, +10%
WMG III: 0.67, normal, +30%
TPC V: 0.375 - 0.188, Weapons only
ID V: 1.3, engines only
IPM V: 0.625, engines only, seeker
PN V: 15.0, planets only
NB V: 5.0, planet population only
GHB V: 1.21 - 0.33, normal
SD V: 7.5, shields only
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
SC X: 1.17, skip armor, crystalline
HEM III: 0.917, normal, crystalline
TDB V: 1.0 (4.0), quad2shields, temporal
TS III: 0.33, skips all, temporal
TKP V: 1.75, normal, psychic
CW III: 6.0, warhead
MSD: 10.0, one shot, RuinsTech
MID: 5.0, one shot, RuinsTech
NSP: 0.4, skips all
CT V: 0.45, ships armor, seeker
SA V: 9.0, shields only, temporal
TC III: 1.2, normal, temporal, +10%
MSG III: 0.68, normal, psychic, +20%<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where the damage rating is: Damage/KT/Turn
Accurate as of SE4 v1.35

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
The thing is, PPBs are so cheap- and almost as effective as APB XIIs- that you really don't need another direct fire weapon. Certainly no reason to research APBs or Meson BLasters..

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In a war, "almost as effective" can be a VERY Bad thing. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I agree that PBB's are too cheap to research. That makes them a formidable mid game weapon. But if you rely on PBB's and face an opponent with APB's or some other longer range weapon, you will get your lunch handed to you.

Now a case could be made that you could eliminate your opponents with PBB v's before they get to APB XII's. That is certainly true against the AI. I am not so sure in a game with several human players.

Even if you could, it's your aggresive style of play and superior tactics and strategy that would make the difference, more than your choice of weapon tech.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Wow, I am away for two days and see a whole bunch of replies. Phoenix, thanks fro backing up my claim there :-)
Alrighty, you all have presented some arguments as to why PPB is NOT the best weapon in the game. Let's see:

* Range - not as relevant as you would think. Sure some other weapons have better range, and they'll get in the first shot. Then they just sit there for a turn or two to reload while the PPB ship closes in and kills them. Plus your initial shot probably misses because of the accuracy penalty of long range weapons.
Fact remains that nothing beats the PPB as a direct fire weapons measured in damage/kiloton/turn. (see table that was reposted). Plus they are cheap to research.
Plus remember that I am talking about Strategic combat, so no dancing in and out of range manually. And if your opponent has such a tech advantage that his *combat* speed is so much bigger than yours that he can shoot, move away, and be far enough for you not to be able to move within your PPB weapons range.... then you're toast anyway.


* Phased shields? By the time I think an opponent might have them I just add some shield depleters to the mix. I'm not even going to bother with phased shields anymore. I can use all that research more wisely elsewhere. Note that the ONLY shield that gives you more protection/kiloton than a regular shield V is the phased shield V, which takes *ages* to research. I'd rather stick to a mix of normal shields and armor.

* Engine killers? Tried em. Don't like em. The only way I can see that strategy working is if you send some 15 LC's equipped only with engine killers against a larger enemy fleet. You have to have enough ships to disable ALL engines on on all their combat ships, then have enough left to move out of their attack range, then go after the support ships. And then 3-4 turns later their repair ships (in fleet) have patched things up and the enemy fleet is moving again. I'd rather spend resources on more attack ships than on wave after wave of engine killers which just slow down the enemy a few turns.

*WMG: see above. Not as good as PPB. Longer range (so what?) long reload time, expensive to research, and less damage per kiloton per turn than a PPB.

Geoschmo, I'd love to take you up on that challenge.

OK here is a sample ship design (by heart, don't know if I used all space available in the hull)
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
6 large mounted PPB V
2 PD V
6 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
1 Shield V

Or: a battleship, same as above, heavy mounts, plus 1 Scattering Armor III, and 3 shields V. Using a MC III instead of bridge/LS/CQ.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

i dont know, man. in a low cost research game, you get those techs awful fast. especially if you focus on research as a race. 100 turns in, and you will be LOOKING for **** to research. you will be thinking, phased shields? sure, dont see anything better. engine killers? beats the heck out of rad extraction 4.

i think all those other techs will come into play, and the guys that specialize will wipe out the generalists sitting there with the tried and true PPBs. dont get me wrong. they are definitly a necessity early-mid-game. however, if you think you can avoid a fight until you get better stuff, and everyone has phased shield anyhow, by all means, bypass them.

besides, even if phased shields give less protection, they give a hell of alot better than ZERO if everyone is using phased weapons. and before you tell me that they dont give as good as armor, keep in mind the repair cost of armor vs the regenerative ability of shields as long as the generator is alive. phased shields I start looking real nice.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

For me, nothing beats a Virus III plus a heavy mount Allegiance Subverter! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

IMO, it is more important to fire first than what weapons you have.... Things being relatively equivalent (ship size, tech levels - not necessarily weapon types), the empire firing first usually will win (unless of course the ship was poorly designed). To me, this firing first seems to be a bigger factor in the outcome of strategic combat than the weapon types.

Having said that, I think PPB's are best for early - mid games and WMG's in the mix for later games.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Dragonlord I used your design in the simulator against a very similar battle cruiser, where I just replaced the PPB by APB XII (6x heavy mount) and the stealth armor and 5x armor III by phased shield V (2x). In all my simulations so far your design was destroyed. Sorry but I think in the late game PPB are not any more the weapon of choice against other ships. It is however still very effective against fighters, because they do not have phased shields.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Dragonlord I think most of the people posting here are talking about strategic combat. Basing their experiences on PBW.
I ran your designs vs the designs on the recent 'Close Combat Ships' topic. Your PPB ship lost every time to CW's 'Ripper Beam Ship' and Taqwus's 'Null Space Combo' designs. &lt;To be fair it did beat many other posted design's http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif&gt;
So it isn't even the best at close combat.
PPB's are also very vulnerable to special racial techs.
I am still unconvinced PPB's are the ultimate weapon.
On using starategic combat 'fleet tactics' can make a huge difference. I know this first hand. In a recent PBW game, I lost my first few engagements vs enemy fleets. As other fleets engaged I tried different formations/strategies. Eventually I found the right mix for my fleets and soon they were winning. Nothing else had changed, if anything the enemy fleets had the advantage due to their recent victories (experience). Fleet mixes were the same. Went from only destroying 1-2 ships to only losing 1-2 ships. These were battles with fleets 30-40 ships in size.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
* Range - not as relevant as you would think. Sure some other weapons have better range, and they'll get in the first shot. Then they just sit there for a turn or two to reload while the PPB ship closes in and kills them. Plus your initial shot probably misses because of the accuracy penalty of long range weapons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry man, but you are way off here. Assuming equal ship sizes, speed, etc, weapon range is not only just as "relevant as I think", it's the ONLY thing that matters.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fact remains that nothing beats the PPB as a direct fire weapons measured in damage/kiloton/turn. (see table that was reposted). Plus they are cheap to research.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now here I can't disagree with you one bit. In fact I am even more of a PBB fan for early/mid game since I found myself in a game recently with meson bLaster III's facing ships with PBB V's. Doh! But if you stop researching weapons after reaching PBB V, you won't Last long.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plus remember that I am talking about Strategic combat, so no dancing in and out of range manually. And if your opponent has such a tech advantage that his *combat* speed is so much bigger than yours that he can shoot, move away, and be far enough for you not to be able to move within your PPB weapons range.... then you're toast anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL. Dude, you must not have recognized my nick here. I am geoschmo, or as some people call me "Mr. PBW", at least my wife does. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif Not saying I am good or anything. I've been beat more than my share. But all I play is strategic combat. I'm not even sure I remember how to fight in tactical. laf.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>* Phased shields? By the time I think an opponent might have them I just add some shield depleters to the mix.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But, why do that if PBB V's are the ONLY weapon worth researching? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif You're arguing my point here guy. Puke does a better job defending phased shields than I could. I would just be repeating what he said.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>*WMG: see above. Not as good as PPB. Longer range (so what?) long reload time, expensive to research, and less damage per kiloton per turn than a PPB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. the long reload time on WMG makes them almost worthless.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Geoschmo, I'd love to take you up on that challenge.

OK here is a sample ship design (by heart, don't know if I used all space available in the hull)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This isn't even hard. I don't even have to try this one. Your design is almost identical to one I tested prior to making my challange. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif As the other guy says, simply replace all the PBB with APB XII's, and your ship gets toasted almost every time. And if you throw in a religous tailsman, it gets beat 100% of the time. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

My challange is unbeatable by PBB. There may be another weapon that can beat my challange, but it isn't PBB. Sorry.

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

One thing to remember about range is you must have sensors/experiance for it to be an advantage. At range 10 any standard weapon has 0% to hit if no other modifiers come into play. Also as pointed out below, he who fires/hits first usually wins. I'd rather have a hip with a lot of PPB's than a few WMG once you start taking damage. All in all I think PPB's are the best direct fire weapon to base your fleet around but you definately need variety to win consistently.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
One thing to remember about range is you must have sensors/experiance for it to be an advantage. At range 10 any standard weapon has 0% to hit if no other modifiers come into play. Also as pointed out below, he who fires/hits first usually wins. I'd rather have a hip with a lot of PPB's than a few WMG once you start taking damage. All in all I think PPB's are the best direct fire weapon to base your fleet around but you definately need variety to win consistently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct, but the same penalties apply to the PBB. All other things being equal, if one ship has greater range in weapons, they will win the majority of the time.

I don't like WMG either personally. And I agree with you about PBB's up through the mid game. But they get passed up later on. And you will too if you stop researching weapons and stay with PBB V's for the rest of the game. Unless you can beat your enemies before they can get the better weapons.

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

The thing with the PPB's and range is that in order to fire you must get within their range, 6 I think, so all direct fire weapons will have a chance to hit. This is where the other modifiers come into play. It's rare by mid-game not to have sensors, ECM, experiance etc. Those are worth more than the weapon type, IMO. You need some direct fire weapon that fires every turn. I usually pick one early and develop it to the max then when I have all the other thing I deem necessary, ECM, shields, armor etc., I research another direct fire weapon. I think it is a waste to research two direct fire weapons at the same time. There's to many other areas that need to be researched.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Nitam, be aware that WMGs have a +30% to hit bonus. So at the same range as the PPBs, they have a significantly better chance to hit.

Phoenix-D

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I agree completely. You are better off picking a particular weapon and researching that as far as you can in most cases. And due to my testing in regards to this thread, and also my recent ingame experience, PBB's will no doubt be a priority for me in future games, if for no other reason than their relative cheapness in research.

I was simply disagreeing with the belief stated earlier in this thread that once you had PBB, you didn't need anything else. That is simply not true based on the facts.

One problem though with researching the PBB up to level five though, is that if your opponent is researching APB while you are researching PBB, you will have the advantage early on, but if you can't capitalize on that advantage, before he gets to the upper levels of APB, and starts beating your PBB ships, you will be WAY behind the curve. You will have to start over on the APB branch and have a long way to go to catch up.

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

WMG are my 'big gun' for planet defense, especially when using the WP range modifier mod. They can almost reach the edge of the board. With their built in to hit and a sensor they pound atacking fleets. I put them on some ships, to target planets and bases at range, but I don't build entire fleets of them. The WMG does have a long reload time. A sh*tload of LC's with direct fire weapons can take out a few DN's with WMG's. Plus the WMG can't target fighters or Sat's. That's why you need a mixed force. Anyone can design a ship to counter a specific ship. The trick is to design a fleet to counter another fleet.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I also like WMG's. IMHO they are the best basic tech LR direct fire weapon. That +30 bonus goes a long way in scoring more hits at range. They are best used in combos with other weapons/ships.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Cool, I got another active thread going http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
OK time for next replies:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
WMG are my 'big gun' for planet defense, especially when using the WP range modifier mod. They can almost reach the edge of the board. With their built in to hit and a sensor they pound atacking fleets. I put them on some ships, to target planets and bases at range, but I don't build entire fleets of them. The WMG does have a long reload time. A sh*tload of LC's with direct fire weapons can take out a few DN's with WMG's. Plus the WMG can't target fighters or Sat's. That's why you need a mixed force. Anyone can design a ship to counter a specific ship. The trick is to design a fleet to counter another fleet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All very true, and I haven't posted my fleets yet. I don't like weapon platforms myself anymore.., yes the large platforms with WMG's are good, if you have enough of them on your planet. But the research needed to get the large platforms, plus the build time for getting enough platforms built, is too expensive. I'd rather use all that to build more ships. Alas, but in my experience in the mid to late game the *only* viable planet defense is...ships. Many ships. Which is why I play merchant races, for the reduced maintenance. I tried the strategy of sending my fleet out to attack the enemy systems while my own close-to-core or core systems are defended with sats, fighters, and many WP's. Didn't work. If an enemy fleet (say 25 ships upwards) slips by into your system they'll destroy anything you have there.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
I agree completely. You are better off picking a particular weapon and researching that as far as you can in most cases. And due to my testing in regards to this thread, and also my recent ingame experience, PBB's will no doubt be a priority for me in future games, if for no other reason than their relative cheapness in research.

I was simply disagreeing with the belief stated earlier in this thread that once you had PBB, you didn't need anything else. That is simply not true based on the facts.

One problem though with researching the PBB up to level five though, is that if your opponent is researching APB while you are researching PBB, you will have the advantage early on, but if you can't capitalize on that advantage, before he gets to the upper levels of APB, and starts beating your PBB ships, you will be WAY behind the curve. You will have to start over on the APB branch and have a long way to go to catch up.

Geoschmo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, correction: I never meant that to say that after the PPB you can stop weapons research entirely, I'm just saying that you get them early and then keep em, none of the high tech weapons eclipse them. But I DO use other weapons..(besides PD): Against organic races I add some Null Space to the mix, and against a race who has been around long enough to have phased shields I add shield depleters.

I'm not surprised that a ship with APB XII beats a PPB V ship, but I'll do all I can to destroy an empire before they get to APB XII, not that hard with the early lead the PPB gives me. (I assume you meant Large mount, not heavy) And I think my PPB ships do better in fleets, so let me post a fleet.
Let's call the design I posted "Killer".

In the mid-game Alpha Fleet will have:
10 Killers
3 PD ships
Enough sweepers to sweep 100 mines
3-4 cruisers with Solar collectors III.
1-2 cruisers with two Repair Bays III and a Hyper Optics sensor.


PD ship: Light Cruiser
Standard stuff (engines, sails etc)
7 PD V
ECM III
1 PPB V
1 Multiplex IV (is this needed on a PD ship?)
1 Combat sensors 3 (Is this needed on a PD ship?)
6 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor III

In the late game Alpha Fleet will be a bit different, same support stuff as above but different attack ships. (also the fleet is more likely to be 40-50 ships, but with same ratio of attack/PD/Support ships)
So lets call this Beta fleet. The attack component will consist of designs Killer II and Nullifier. (I'll use battlecruisers as an example, the same principle can be applied to Battleships).
Mix (against non-organics)
8x Killer II
2x Nullifier

Killer II
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
1 Shield depleter V (large mount)
5 large mounted PPB V
1 PD V
5 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
2 Shield V

Nullifier:
Battle Cruiser
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
2 large mounted Null space III
2 large mounted PPB
1 PD V
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
1 Scattering Armor 3
2 Shield V
1 Self destruct
1 Armor III

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Oh by the way, I did not know that WMG's get a to-hit bonus. Where can I see that? Do other weapons get that too and how do I find out about it?

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Components.txt is where you want to look Dragonlord. Weapon Modifier entry for the weapon.
There are three weapons that have built in to hit bonuses.
PD +70
WMG +30
HEM +30 (crystal)
It would be nice if they were listed when you look at the component. Some modders have done this.


[This message has been edited by Rich04 (edited 04 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

A few times I was ready to jump in and agree that PPB are the top weapon... but I now hesitate.

I do very much agree that they are way too inexpensive and disproportionate, however.

I will say I have learned quite a bit from this thread, many thanks! I may have to put some of this to the test...

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ah, correction: I never meant that to say that after the PPB you can stop weapons research entirely, I'm just saying that you get them early and then keep em, none of the high tech weapons eclipse them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You will do well to keep researching, because eventually the PBB do get "eclipsed". If your fleets are just a bunch of PPB ships, with a few Null Space Weapons thrown in, they are still susceptible to the same problems you individual ship had. The lack of range is going to kill you against an otherwise equal enemy. Setting your strategy to "point blank" doesn't do anything if you get chewed up before you get within range to fire your weapons.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I DO use other weapons..(besides PD): Against organic races I add some Null Space to the mix, and against a race who has been around long enough to have phased shields I add shield depleters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here we start to see a peek at the real reason for your success. It's not your reliance on PPB at all. It's your ability to react to different situations and different enemies. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif But neither of these are going to help you against an enemy with longer range weapons than PPB.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not surprised that a ship with APB XII beats a PPB V ship, but I'll do all I can to destroy an empire before they get to APB XII, not that hard with the early lead the PPB gives me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah ha! PPB isn't a secret weapon after all. It's your aggressiveness, strategy, and execution that wins you all those games. (I knew it all along.) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

And here's the kicker. What if your enemy starts out with PPB as well? That neutralizes your early advantage. Then you are back to relying on your wits, instead of your fancy Phased Polaron Beams.

My entire point in playing the devil's advocate in this thread has not been to say that PPB's aren't a great weapon, especially in the early to mid game. But when I hear terms like "bored" or "repetitive" in reference to SEIV, I gotta think you aren't playing the right people. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
Cool, I got another active thread going http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
OK time for next replies:

Ah, correction: I never meant that to say that after the PPB you can stop weapons research entirely, I'm just saying that you get them early and then keep em, none of the high tech weapons eclipse them. But I DO use other weapons..(besides PD): Against organic races I add some Null Space to the mix, and against a race who has been around long enough to have phased shields I add shield depleters.

I'm not surprised that a ship with APB XII beats a PPB V ship, but I'll do all I can to destroy an empire before they get to APB XII, not that hard with the early lead the PPB gives me. (I assume you meant Large mount, not heavy) And I think my PPB ships do better in fleets, so let me post a fleet.
Let's call the design I posted "Killer".

In the mid-game Alpha Fleet will have:
10 Killers
3 PD ships
Enough sweepers to sweep 100 mines
3-4 cruisers with Solar collectors III.
1-2 cruisers with two Repair Bays III and a Hyper Optics sensor.


PD ship: Light Cruiser
Standard stuff (engines, sails etc)
7 PD V
ECM III
1 PPB V
1 Multiplex IV (is this needed on a PD ship?)
1 Combat sensors 3 (Is this needed on a PD ship?)
6 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor III

In the late game Alpha Fleet will be a bit different, same support stuff as above but different attack ships. (also the fleet is more likely to be 40-50 ships, but with same ratio of attack/PD/Support ships)
So lets call this Beta fleet. The attack component will consist of designs Killer II and Nullifier. (I'll use battlecruisers as an example, the same principle can be applied to Battleships).
Mix (against non-organics)
8x Killer II
2x Nullifier

Killer II
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
1 Shield depleter V (large mount)
5 large mounted PPB V
1 PD V
5 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
2 Shield V

Nullifier:
Battle Cruiser
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
2 large mounted Null space III
2 large mounted PPB
1 PD V
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
1 Scattering Armor 3
2 Shield V
1 Self destruct
1 Armor III

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually only build medium and small WP. Smalls have PD only or PB's only, one shield and one armor each. Medium are used for the WMG. 5-10 WP will hold almost any planet. I do play with a mod that increases the WP range so that helps a lot on the beam weapons. It makes taking the AI planets a little more dangerous, some times can't even close without losing ships.

My PD ship are different than yours. I only put the minimum stuff on them and the rest PD, no shields armor sensors etc. I find the AI rarely targets them so they don't need to much protection.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My PD ship are different than yours. I only put the minimum stuff on them and the rest PD, no shields armor sensors etc. I find the AI rarely targets them so they don't need to much protection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is something I would really like to see. The ability to target specifc ships based on what components they have. I can't think of a better way to stop an enemy cold than to take out his minesweepers, or PD ships, or his supply ships. Fighters or escorts that ignore everything else and head straight for the carriers. That could really cause problems when faced with overwhelming odds.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 04 September 2001).]

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

I myself like the enveloping acid weapons from the Organic weapons list.

Now how does your apb or ppb ships do when they go up against a ship that has shield depleters followed by a ship that has temporal weapons ( the ones that increase the reload to 15 )?

But natually all this changes based on what mod your playing.

Are we just talking stock 1.41 ????




------------------
L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

Tesco,
Yes we are talking stock 1.41, which I think is the most common on PBW.

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

QUOTE]This is something I would really like to see. The ability to target specifc ships based on what components they have. I can't think of a better way to stop an enemy cold than to take out his minesweepers, or PD ships, or his supply ships. Fighters or escorts that ignore everything else and head straight for the carriers. That could really cause problems when faced with overwhelming odds.

Geoschmo
[/b]

I dont think this would be hard to do, to an extent. u can target specific ship sizes, but not components. Just make a custom strategy, and make the strat ignore everything except carriers (for example).

Besides, even if u could target ships carrying specific components, I could fool the strategy by putting one PD cannon (for example) on every ship; which isn't a bad idea anyway, just in case the ai kills off my specialty ship..

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbluck:
Besides, even if u could target ships carrying specific components, I could fool the strategy by putting one PD cannon (for example) on every ship; which isn't a bad idea anyway, just in case the ai kills off my specialty ship.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except that's not really fooling the strategy. If the idea is knock out all the PDC, the ships would target the ships with PDC until the PDC were destroyed and then move on to the next ship. Imagine a planet with missles on WP's, and fighters that are targeting just ships with PDC. If you can knock out all the PDC, even if your fighters get chewed up, the attacker would be wiped out trying to attack the planet with no PDC left to protect his fleet. Of course unless you had a weapon that targeted only PDC, which isnt' an option now either, putting PDC on every ship would make the strategy less effective. So I guess it's fooling it somewhat.

Geo

Re: PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.
 

PPBs are a crucial part of any race's arsenal that do not have unique racial weapons. Cheap to research and requires very advanced shields to stop. Armor III is my standard defense against PPBs and put on one Shield 5 just to hold off any fighters that might get through PDCs.

I am in a game against an Organic race where PPBs are practically useless because he buts 3 or 4 armor on his ships. I have to use Null Space weapons to get to him and they are very costly and reload very slowly.

Because his ships use organic weapons, his ships build in about half the time/half the minerals. Organic seekers are a pain to fight because he can launch so many, reload quickly, and they move quickly. If anything is the bane of PPBs, I would say it is twice as many ships with organic seekers and organic armor.