PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.

[Dragonlord]

Hi all,

After playing for a few months now, it seems to me that the PPB (Phased Polaron beam) is the best weapon by far in this game, but that it unfortunately unbalances the game. (this applies mostly to PBW multiplayer)

Missiles are useless (as discussed in other threads) because PD is too cheap and strong.
Same for fighters.
DUC's: I start with them but don't bother to research em to level 5, I go straight for Physics 2 and PPB's. I can usually avoid any wars until I have the PPB. It devastates any opponent who went with shields in stead of armor, and it takes a long time before you get worthwile levels of phased shields (3 and up).

Even in the late game (turn 80 upwards) I stick with PPB. I find they outgun graviton beams, rippers, and even WMG's.
I base this on direct-fire attack ships, the bulk of my fleets. Other weapons might be useful in very specialised circumstances (e.g. a battle station with rippers, or a boarding ship with shield depleters). But in order to do most damage, consistently, in large battles, stick with PPB's.

Numbers: don't just look at damage per kiloton ratio's, but look at damage per kiloton per combat turn. A wave-motion gun III (tough to research) has a better damage/kiloton (size) ration than a PPB, but only fires once every three turns. In three turns an enemy ship with PPB's will have done more damage than it's counterpart with WMG's. (ignore chance to hit ratios etc since that depends on sensors etc, not on weapon type). Range? sure a WMG has more range, but does that matter in large fleet battles in strategic combat? Even if you use maximum weapons range, you usually can't shoot and then move away far enough for the enemy (with PPB) to be unable to catch up to you while you reload.

Conslusion: this is not good. It's boring for me to stick to the same weapon throughout an entire game, having found after much experimentation that other ship designs are inferior. I tried missile ships, I tried battleships with the tractor/graviton/repulser combo, etc.
The only thing that comes close is a battleship loaded with Rippers and set to point-blank strategy. Other special weapons (like bio bombs) are nice ideas but only remotely useful in the first 20 turns or so, when you can quickly infect a planet using one to three ships. Later, it's either glass em or capture em.

Am I missing something here?
Your comments are welcome !

Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.

Now what I'd really like to know is how range to target affects your chance to hit, and if this is different for each weapon. Where can I find more info / stats on that?
Thanks,
Dragonlord

[Suicide Junkie]

Sounds like you are in need of a MOD.

Check out the Damage Factor List I created. It specifies the Damage rating for each weapon in Standard SE4. (Damage/Kt/turn), as well as pointing out accuracy bonuses & damage types.

In P&N,
-there are Quad2Shield missiles, +15% upto +25% accuracy torpedoes, while beamweapons do more damage.
-PDCs are divided into "normal" strength PDCs (max range = 2) and half-damage PDLs (max range = 7)
-phased weapons are weaker than their normal counterparts, and available in three flavors(phased beams, torps & missiles). The normal weapon tech must be researched along with "phased weapons" in order to get your PPBs.
-phased shields alternate with normal shields (Phased is marginally stronger, but one techlevel higher)
-and finally, armor is stronger than shields (but takes ages to repair after battle)

All these should help reduce your dependence on any one type of weapon and/or defense.


As for a dreadnaught? Try this beast on for size!
The thing can absorb 92% of incoming Null-Space weapons harmlessly, and with multiple backup systems, the remaining 8% will not destroy any critical systems.
It is basically impervious to Shield disruptors and Tachyon cannons.

The P&N v2 Version of this ship will also have 40 engines (meaning ion beams will have little effect), plus Biocrystal armor instead of HMSGs, giving it invulnerability to normal mount guns, and extreme resistance to even Heavy mounts.

I really like the "totally invisible to the naked eye of most species" part: +108% defense
All this for the low, low price of $100,000 minerals
------------------
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-<P&N V2 AI patch>- (V2 only, for the AIs included in ZIPs from v2.0 to v2.3, prevents rare RCEs)
-<Download P&N Classic>- (The final release of P&N v1.x, just extract to your SE4 folder)
-<Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.2 through v1.7>-
-<Download SJs latest AI Patcher>-
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Other Links:
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 01 September 2001).]

[Phoenix-D]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dragonlord:Hi all,

After playing for a few months now, it seems to me that the PPB (Phased Polaron beam) is the best weapon by far in this game, but that it unfortunately unbalances the game. (this applies mostly to PBW multiplayer)

---

That they are. I neutered them a bit in Techmod..

quote:

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Missiles are useless (as discussed in other threads) because PD is too cheap and strong.
Same for fighters.

---

You need a really, REALLY large number to get through in any level of effectiveness, so yeah, you'd normally be better off with other weapons.

quote:

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Even in the late game (turn 80 upwards) I stick with PPB. I find they outgun graviton beams, rippers, and even WMG's.

---

That's partially because High Energy Discharge isn't worth the research points, and is weak overall. Still, PPB Vs are almost as good as APB 12s, which is..odd.

quote:

---

Numbers: don't just look at damage per kiloton ratio's, but look at damage per kiloton per combat turn. A wave-motion gun III (tough to research) has a better damage/kiloton (size) ration than a PPB, but only fires once every three turns. In three turns an enemy ship with PPB's will have done more damage than it's counterpart with WMG's. (ignore chance to hit ratios etc since that depends on sensors etc, not on weapon type).

---

Actually, chance to hit DOES factor in. Why? WMGs get a to-hit bonus, PPBs do not. Still not worth it though.

quote:

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Conslusion: this is not good. It's boring for me to stick to the same weapon throughout an entire game, having found after much experimentation that other ship designs are inferior. I tried missile ships, I tried battleships with the tractor/graviton/repulser combo, etc.
The only thing that comes close is a battleship loaded with Rippers and set to point-blank strategy. Other special weapons (like bio bombs) are nice ideas but only remotely useful in the first 20 turns or so, when you can quickly infect a planet using one to three ships. Later, it's either glass em or capture em.

---

Do remember that bio bombs only need one hit, and most populations reallt dislike being plagued..

quote:

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Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.

---

Personally, I stop at Battlecruiser..

quote:

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Now what I'd really like to know is how range to target affects your chance to hit, and if this is different for each weapon. Where can I find more info / stats on that?

---

Range is a flat 10% per square, I think. Easiest way to check is fire up tactical combat, control both sides, and check yout %s as you close (make sure to turn on display hit %s!)

Techmod lowers the High Energy Discharge to the same place as PPBs, and makes it easier to get phased shields (though normal shields are more powerful). Wham, bam, instant less-useful PPBs. I also increased the research cost for PPBs.

Phoenix-D

[CW]

quote:

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Oh while I'm at it: why would anyone bother with dreadnoughts? Battleships give the same heavy mount and have one more speed. I find dreads just slow down my fleets.

---

Remember that for every ship you will need a set of bridge/CQs/LSs or MC. You will also need combat sensors, ECMs, long range jammer, self destruct device/anti-boarding parties etc. So if you have a larger hull you can fit in more firepower and spend less space (in the fleet) on "supporting" equipment. I personally don't find the slightly slower speed of a dreadnought to have much of a negative effect in my games, but I do find baseships to be too slow and yak! -40% to defense! So I only use them for non-combat and specialised roles.

[edit] Don't let me find any more typo please!

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 02 September 2001).]

[geoschmo]

I have never got bored with this game. So you have found a weapon that in a 1 on 1 ship battle would beat almost any other ship. How many times do you have 1 on 1 ship battles?

Wars in real life, and in Se4, aren't won by technology alone. Tactics, initiative, economics, logistics. All those are what keeps things interesting. And those change from player to player and game to game.

Personally I get more wrapped up in those things and often lose track of what weapons my ships have on them. Sometimes this hurts me and I end up losing a battle, or winning with heavier casualties than anticipated. But concentrating on building a strong economy, and aggresive tactics that keep your opponent reacting instead of acting, will make up for a lot of tech defecincies in the long run.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

..which still doesn't change the fact that any weapon other than PPB is really just wasting time and research in most cases.

BTW, what was up with Shrapnel earlier? I couldn't get through.

Phoenix-D

[Dragonlord]

Exactly.
I agree with both geoschmo and Phoenix.

[capnq]

There was a time when I had never researched anything bigger then a battlecruiser...

until the PBW game where I saw one of my neighbors fielding fleets of double digit numbers of baseships.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 02 September 2001).]

[Rich04]

I know what you mean Capnq. And those baseships (from one race) were armed with APB XII and Phased Shields V. went around munching PPB fleets.

Then there was that other race that had smaller ships without PPB that ate PPB fleets for breakfast.


[This message has been edited by Rich04 (edited 02 September 2001).]

[Dragonlord]

Rich, could you be more specific about that fleet of smaller ships? If they won battles it was presumably due to combat bonuses (small=harder to hit) and numbers?
Because in my experience the only thing that kills my PPB fleets is an enemy with a fleet that is twice as large and has significant (30+) combat bonuses, either racial or through ship/fleet exp. With enough bonuses even a dozen LC's with DUC's can do serious damage, if they are impossible to hit...

FYI, my fleets are usually 35 to 50 ships, with 35% being PPB Battleships (for the heavy mount), 35% PPB Battlecruisers (shorter build time) and 30% support ships (sweepers, repair and fuel ships) with a fleet speed of 10 (11 if I have propulsion experts).