Gemgen alternative idea.
 

When following the discussion about gem generators, it struck me that one solution to this problem could be to make them summons.

• They could be immobile with 1hp so would be fragile in war.
• Hammers wouldn´t help in summoning them
• They could be assigned a hefty upkeep (like 50g per turn) to prevent hoarding

The downside is that while they could still be multipath, they would only cost gems of one type. Like 20 water for clams (aquatic?), 40 blood slaves for stones and 15 nature for fetishes (spreads disease in province?).

Opinions? Is it possible?

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Possible with mod commands, yes.

I don't think it's a good idea though.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Should be possible, but it doesn't fix the problem, which is that non-capturable, recursive income generation is a flat-out bad mechanic that's really not worth fixing.

I know some people are set on clinging to gem-gens as "the only way for x nation to win," so I think we should brainstorm on *fun* ways to make some of the underpowered nations in the game more competitive, instead of trying to fix the problem with a bigger, more unfun problem.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Yeah it keeps coming up that by removing gen gems you wreck certain nations - I think they were wrecked anyway in terms of fun if gem gens were so important to them. But any mod that removes gen gems could also compensate the nations worst hit.

It isn't really hard to come up with ideas to boost MA Oceania, Machaka or Bandar Log is it? I mean even tinkering with the paths on their mages would work.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Or it might not, balance is a delicate matter. :)

Besides, removing gem generators means there's only one valid strategy left: 'conquer more provinces faster'. I am not sure I like it.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Shameless advertisement time!

I've already made a mod for Oceania to boost it in a gem-gen-less enviroment. The changes are currently incorporated in the UWGIM mod (see my sig for link). If someone wants just the national changes in a mod, just PM me and I can whip one up quickly.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

So the game boils down to two strategies? Make gem gens and/or conquer more provinces faster?

Pretty sure there's a lot more to one of those strategies than the other.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Well, not quite two, of course. There's also 'get more tartarians' game, diplomacy, 'be LA Rlyeh or Ermor' - this one is rather hard to do if you didnt pick Rlyeh or Ermor initially, of course...
:)
And no, I dont think that 'rush neighbours' is that much more creative than 'clam like crazy'. Gem gens alone dont win the game, nor does rush. But two viable paths are better than one.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

My idea was basically centered around the upkeep. If having 10 clams cost you 500 gold per turn it will never be a competitive strategy on it´s own.

Then it would still be available for those nations where a little gem boost could open up their national summons like Ma Agartha or Bandar log, but you´d still never get to the absurd 100:eds of gems per turn. 100 clams would be an upkeep of 5000.

Just an idea somewhere in between. I still like gemgens myself, but maybe I just need some more late game nightmares to set me straight:)

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

I don't think people were claiming rushing is creative. It is inarguably more interactive than clamming though.

Not sure why I'm responding really, since I think the reduction of the game to 'rush or genhoard or be la ermor or rlyeh' is silly.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Not sure why I'm responding after being called silly, but I'd still love to think whats wrong with this generalisation.

In my experience, you must conquer your neighbours and genhoard. At the moment, you probably need both in order to win. Remove generators, and conquest will be your only way to gain resources.

Claiming that something is 'inarguable' is also quite... arguable. You have to be creative to start clamming and bloodstoning with a race that has no water and blood, at least assuming that making one generator per turn with your god is not 'hoarding'.

But... really, aren't conquest, genhoarding and massed tartarians not THE ways to dominate the endgame? :) Enlighten me please.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

I'm not calling you silly, I'm calling the reduction of the game in that way silly. I also invite you to think about what's wrong with it, since you offered.

People have won numerous games without gem generators. Obviously they haven't won without conquering territory. But you mentioned 'rushing', which I responded to. Conquering and rushing are pretty different terms in dom3, as I'm sure you realise.

If you want to show that it's not inarguable, by all means argue against it. I said nothing about creativity. I said rushing is more interactive than genhoarding. Rushing requires meaningful interaction with at least one other player, by definition. Genhoarding could involve trading for something from someone, so there's that I guess? It isn't really comparable in terms of interaction. And if by rushing you simply mean conquest, then the level of interaction there is WAAAAY higher.

Conquest, genhoarding and tartarians aren't comparable concepts. Conquest is absolutely essential to dom3 and encompasses a huge variety of strategies. Genhoarding and Tartarian massing are far more specific. You can win without doing either.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Well, my current income in Beyond (~turn 80) is about 21000 gold. I'd pay 5000 gold for 100 pearls a month.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

I suspect you been doing some conquest as well.
It probably works more against the turtle and clam hoard strategy.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Ok, by 'rushing' I didnt mean a classic zergling-rush. I meant a constant, fast-paced conquest. And, of course, while conquest and hoarding arent exactly comparable, they are still two different ways of getting stronger.

Its like saying that building new bases and researching new technologies arent comparable... But in fact, they are. Research/expansion/rush, three basic paths in RTS.

And... Competitive games which dragged all the way to 80+ turn were won without generators? I find it rather hard to believe, sorry. Unless it was, say, Ermor/Rlyeh, of course.

Or maybe it was a blitzkrieg, where one clearly dominant player crushed his opposition one by one, and they couldnt unite against him until it was too late? Then it wasnt a competitive game, sorry. I've seen one such game; I was in quite a strong position, but SUDDENLY I found out that leading player who already conquered ~half the map is supported by everyone. Instead of attacking the would-be winner, his sattelites were attacking his opposition... but thats another story. :)
What I want to say is that stopping such a dominant nation is rather hard even now, when you can genhoard. Without genhoarding, it will become futile.
Of course, that will also shorten games and reduce the MM, which is kinda what many players want. I just hope that it wont become a new standard, because I enjoy MM and complicated situations. When I'll want to play with just my national troops and low-level combat evocations , I'll play... well, warcraft.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Fantomen - Upkeep can be circumvented if you're willing to alchemize your piles of gems for any essential gold purchases and rely on commanders and 0 upkeep summons that won't desert. You'll go more and more negative each turn you get more clams, but it won't matter...obviously this would be more of an end-game tactic, but it doesn't solve the problem.

That much upkeep is also bad for the "natural" clamming nations, since the earlier in the game it is the more painful the upkeep is.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

I think this is a great idea. It directly addresses two major problems with hoarding:

1) Clams are not detectable - fixed

2) Clams could never be destroyed (they would just be moved by lab to a diffent location) - fixed

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

I'm guessing no is the answer, but can commander units be modded so that they are forced into doing a specific order each turn? If so, then maybe gem generating units could be forced to patrol each turn, thereby making them very vunerable, and always a target for attack by simply attacking the province they are in.

Just a thought on this topic, although I personally have my doubts about the idea itself. Mainly due to negative income being a very managable thing, especially in the late game.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

No, and that also brings up the issue of all those commanders sitting around with no orders mucking up the n key.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Ah yes, the eternal question of what to do with mages once research is completed that doesn't involve pressing 'n' several hundred times every turn.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Sacred non-commander units don't desert either, so you get to keep them too if you get into negative income. Even regular units don't seem to desert all that quickly.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Fight. ;)

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Actually, clams can be destroyed... Armageddon destroys them together with their holders. :) Lost tons of clams that way recently.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Good plan.

- "Mages, all of you grab your staves and head northwards towards the battlefront".......

- "Sire, a messenger has just come fresh from the battlefront having ridden for two days to reach us. He reports that our Mages are causing much devastation to the enemies ranks"
- "Excellent".......

- "Sire Sire"
- "What is it?"
- "Some large monsters, presumably under the magical control of our enemy, have just arrived at the castle boundaries, and are breaking through the gates as I speak."
- "Send forth all the castle mages immediately to deal with these pests"
- "But Sire, you sent all our mages to the northern battlefront. There are none in the castle now"
- "Oh Arse"

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Yeah but that was basically the only way you could get at them. Now, you can seige/storm the fort where your enemies clams are and wipe them out. Additionally, making them fragile means they are vulnerable to regular remotes: seeking arrow, flames from afar, disease, etc.

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Can't you assassinate a clam-holder and take/destroy his clam?

-Max

Re: Gemgen alternative idea.
 

Not if you put them on a scout.

Wrath of God (?) can kill them, too, I think.