PaK 97/38
 

I'm getting mixed messages on the German PaK 97/38 that was made from captured French 75's. About half the sources I can find (including Wikiepdia) indicate that the gun primarily used a HEAT round due to its low velocity and achieved a penetration of 90mm and that the AP round was not used/issues due to excessive recoil. Other sources say that the French and Polish AP rounds were used primarily because the HEAT shell was not developed was not developed until later in the war (or not at all).

Can anyone clarify how the PaK 97/38's were actually employed by the Germans? The HEAT load seems reasonable given that 75mm HEAT shells were appearing in the loads of the short barreled Panzer IVs about that time.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

German Artillery of World War Two
Ian V. Hogg

PP 202-203

Hogg says the 7.5 K Gr Patr (p) was AP shot that had been part of the Polish army stocks so would have been available when the gun was issued

The HEAT round was German Manufactured but the case and charge came from captured French stock and was, in fact the 7.5cm FK38 shell with the substitution of a copper driving band for the sintered one used in the German gun.

Hogg goes on to say the gun was not particularly successful owing to it's low muzzle velocity and it was also unpopular with the troops because of an inherent instability when fired and a high carriage failure rate ( the carriage was the same as the 5cm PAK 38 and the muzzle brake was fitted to reduce the recoil stress arrising from the up gunned carriage )

Muzzle velocities

HE-- 1893 fps
AP---1870 fps
HEAT-1476 fps

The gun didn't last long as a front line weapon on the Eastern front but was used on West Wall defences. He also seems to indicate the HEAT round was provided when the gun was issued ( quote "a hollow charge round was provided" no indication is was a late development)

Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

This picture shows a captured Wehrmacht data sheet for the PaK 97/38:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5...8datasheet.jpg

The gunners who used this sheet had two types of ammunition: a 6.8 kg Polish AP shot (the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p)) and a 4.8 kg ‘French’ HEAT round (the 7.5 cm Gr.38/97 HL/C (f)). I’d guess that the Germans may also have used the other HEAT and HE rounds listed in wikipedia.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

AFAIK the first guns were issued late spring/early summer 1942 as part of a crash programme to provide the troops with something more adequate that the 3,7cm anti-tank gun to supplement the 5cm guns and the few 7,5cm long guns available (re-chambered Soviet 7,62cm field guns being part of the same proramme).

With regards to ammunition, there were plenty of captured French HE available (5,5 million rounds) as well as stocks of French and Polish AP. Allegedly the captured ammo was used first, but 929,400 HEAT rounds were made in 1942 and 37,800 fired together with 91,000 HE rounds (no data for AP). So clearly, the HEAT round became available quite soon after the gun was introduced.

Production of the gun ran out in 1943 after 3700 had been made. Production of the HEAT round continued into 1944 with more the 2,5 million being made.

In 1943 371,000 HEAT rounds were fired together with 1,123,000 HE rounds, the figures for 1944 was 592,000 and 4,105,000 respectively. I guess it shows that while the gun is often seen as an anti-tank gun, in reality it was perhaps more of an infantry gun.

About 500 guns were lost in 1942, some 650 in 1943, some 800 in 1944. By March 1945, the German Army had 122 guns left and some 700,000 rounds of HE and 630,000 rounds of HEAT.

I doubt that excessive recoil had anything to do with few AP rounds being fired. IIRC the AP round and the HE round was roughly the same weight and fired at the same velocity, so recoil forces would've been similar. And the numbers of HE rounds fired clearly suggest that the gun was up to the task. Seems more likely to me that the AP round was abandoned as soon as the HEAT round became available because of the superior performance of the latter (70mm penetration in the 1942 round, up to 100mm in the later types).

A report on the gun from february 1943 states that the Soviet T-34 tank could be engaged with some succes at ranges from 200-800 meters. The gun was very good against enemy infantry, easily concealed due to its low heigt and easy to lay due to well-placed elevation and traverse controls. On the downside was the lack of tracer on the ammunition, the slow operation of the breech and the tendency of the gun to jump when fired. This lead to high ammunition expenditure and a slow rate of fire. One report speaks of 12-24 rounds fired in order to defeat an enemy tank, a lot higher than, say, the 7,5cm PaK 40.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

After looking at the data sheet again I've realised that it provides more information about the ammunition used by the gun in the bottom right hand corner - under 'Patronen.' There is a list of four types of HE shell (Sprgr.) along with the two anti-tank rounds I mentioned earlier. The HE shells might be those listed in the wikipedia. I should have looked through the whole form before I posted it.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Thank you all for the confirmation. Someone might want to review the ammo load outs on Axis Pak 97 AT-gun units. They are heavily weighted to standard AP instead of HEAT.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Help me out with these figures.

If 3,700 guns were made, and they lost about 1,150 before 1944, leaving 2,550. In 1944 they fired at least 4,697,000 rounds (592,000 HEAT plus 4,105,000 HE; not including AP)

Even if we don't consider the guns lost during 1944 (800) that's at least 1,842 rounds fired per gun in the year 1944.

Is that what these stats are saying?

I guess that's only about half a dozen rounds a day, and the barrel life may be over 10,000 rounds right?

cheers,
Cross

Re: PaK 97/38
 

That stats are saying what the stats are saying - what we make of them is a different matter :)

You can average the figures like you do, but there are obvious problems involved in doing so. The 800 guns lost probably also fired some ammunition and some guns might have been deployed in places where they didn't get much of chance to fire while others got pleny of chances to do so.
Ammunition expenditure probably includes rounds fired in training and may also include ammunition lost when captured by the enemy.

So who knows how many shots the guns really fired...? ;)

No idea about barrel life of this gun. The 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 used in the Panzer IV was rated at 12.000-14.000 rounds and the 7,5cm le FK 18 L/26 at 8.000-10.000 rounds. The 7,5cm PaK 40 L/46 was rated at 6.000 rounds. I suppose you could say that the French gun fell somewhere in between the former two and the latter in terms of barrel length and muzzle velocity and perhaps also barrel wear.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

There is only ONE Pak 97/38 in the game and it's in the German OOB. If you believe there are others please detail which OOB and which unit number


"Heavily weighted" ??? Given that one unit has an ammo loadout of ...

30 HE
22 AP
23 HEAT

How do you figure 23 HEAT vs 22 AP makes that "heavily weighted to standard AP" ??? If it was 35 AP and 10 HEAT I could see your point. I can even see that there may be a point to be made that there should be a bit more HEAT and a bit less AP ( perhaps 30 HEAT and 15 AP ) but I am at loss to see how anyone could say the existing ammo loadout is "Heavily weighted" in favour of AP over HEAT unless they are naturally given to exaggeration

Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Romania OB 39
Unit 200 40 AP 10 HEAT
Unit 206 45 AP 5 HEAT

Hungary OB 38
Unit 031 40 AP 5 HEAT
Unit 174 50 AP 0 HEAT

Czechoslovakia OB 37
Unit 080 30 AP 0 HEAT

Finland OB 35
Unit 043 40 AP 0 HEAT

Italy OB 34
Unit 102 40 AP 10 HEAT

Bulgaria OB 19
Unit 85 40 AP 0 HEAT

Slovak Republic OB 01
Unit 80 30 AP 0 HEAT

I mean its plausible that the Germans foisted off their stocks of Polish and French AP ammo onto their allies (if that is what the OBs are trying to indicate), but given that the HEAT shell production numbers appear to be valid I would say that the Pak 97/38 was primarily a HEAT weapon and should have few if any AP rounds be it Germany or second tier powers.

BTW, check out the 20549 lbm. It seems like a much clearer depiction of the weapon than the default 209 lbm.

OK, I did my seach by unit name and should have checked by weapon name. I'll put this on the list

There are three additional nations that appear to use it as well and in some cases it's highly questionable they would have them so this will all be reviewed before the next patch. Czechoslovakia is a good example. It exists in the Czech OOB two years before production started in Germany..... the "good news" is the reason there are only AP rounds available for it is because HEAT ammo didn't exist in 1939

As for production numbers remember that there were large stocks of French and Polish AP captured that would never show up as production and the Germans were unlikely to deprive their own troops of HEAT so it is more than likely a lot of that captured AP went to their allies and the HEAT was kept for German guns though, in reality, this is a very minor weapon in the big scheme of things

Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

I was hoping that the community would have some information as to who used what ammunition and when. The Finish PaK 97's appear to have had their own locally produced solid shot AP, but I would find it highly likely that the eastern front collation partners would have received excess German HEAT rounds once the Germans traded in the Pak 97's for Pak 40's. The Italians, Hungarians and Romanians were all in the same theater so it stands to reason that ammunition would have been provided as well as guns. Also keep in mind that the HEAT round had a lower muzzle energy which would have been a plus on the overly light gun carriage and the high ammo burn rate involved with hitting tanks mentioned by cbo would have put pressure on the stocks of captured ammunition.

While the Pak 97/38 may not have been as well known as some of the other weapons 3,700 were produced which is no insignificant number so its worth trying to get the figures right.

Oh, I also forgot about the Pz.740(r), would is a Pak 97 mounted on a T-26 chassis.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

There are 23 open slots left in the German OOB. That is not going to increase. However ,I will but this on the list and consider it even though only 10 were produced as an experiment.

If anyone actually finds a photo of a Pak 97 mounted on a T-26 chassis please share( nevermind..... I found one )
Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

The standard German anti-tank guns like the 3,7cm PaK 35/36, 5cm PaK 38 and 7,5cm PaK 40 aside, the PaK 97/38 was probably the most numerous in terms of production of all the German anti-tank guns.

Are you sure they ever traded them in? Considering the European Gun Bazar that was the Wehrmacht with its Soviet, Czech, French and whatnot guns, the PaK 97/38 was not such a bad deal. And there were still anti-tank units in Normandy in 1944 armed with 5cm anti-tank guns. Clearly, some PaK 97/38 were sold off to allies, but I'd be surprised if the Germans did not retain the bulk of the guns and used them up in combat.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

OK, let me put it another way keeping in mind this is a game

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

?

Also, we allow this weapon into the game 11/41. You and I both know Claus that there will ALWAYS be a source that disagrees with some other source and you also know we do our best to sort that out or, when doubt exists, compromise. Wikipedia ( NEVER a source to be relied on without back up, ) claims the 7.5 cm Pak 97/38 "reached the battlefield in the summer of 1942". Hogg only says the gun was produced to fill the gap until the PaK 40 could be supplied in numbers and the impetus to create the gun was the result of trying to deal with heavy Soviet tanks in the late summer of 1941 so we may be too generous in our 11/41 introduction. If it doesn't show up until after the PaK 40 then--- IN GAME TERMS,---- it's not something a player would deliberately buy unless they were handicapping themselves or building a scenario so from that perspective it's not a significant weapon although to gunners at the front who had a choice between it and a 3.7cm gun it wins hands down but not, as I say, in a game environment when better weapons can be had ( but at a higher cost )The Russian 7.62cm PaK 36r is more expensive in game terms than the 97/38 and cheaper than the PaK 40 but it's AP pen is almost as good as the Pak 40 and it's available almost at the same time as the 97/38 AND it's AP pen exceeds the HEAT pen of the 97/38 by 33% given that the 97/38 becomes almost a "neverpick" item

That said we both know that we could debate these dates forever and eventually someone will come along and say it's wrong. That's the nature of wargamers

Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Just corroborating the notion that the PaK 97/38 was a pretty common weapon in the German Army - not suggesting what you should do with it in the game......:)

Since you ask. You sort of answered it yourself further down - to play a historical scenario/game where this gun was used.

Sure - but what exactly have I done to fuel this particular statement of well know facts?

I'm not telling you how to design your game, what units you should put in it, or how you should modify data. I'm hardly playing it these days. I'd just thought I'd throw in bit of historical data on the subject as that is my primary interest here - the history, not the game.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Just stating the obvious for everyone's benefit Claus. Sort of a "devils advocate" These are not "well know facts" for everyone and not everyone understands that sometimes we have to bend reality to fit the game

:)

Don

Re: PaK 97/38
 

I don't know about you, but some people DO play the game for the scenarios and enjoy seeing how to fight and win real historic battles. The encyclopedia is also a pretty handy reference. I know we live in the age of Wikiepdia, but the SP OB files are one of the better databases that are synthesized from multiple sources.

Even if in the sort of "free choice" unit buying system the game uses favors the high quality weapons, just having the potpourri of captured foreign units in the OB's taught me just how hard up German was for equipment due to its poor mobilization efforts prior to 1943.

Anyway, at least for my own information is there a consensus on the distribution of HEAT ammunition for the Pak 97/38 in various Axis armies?

Re: PaK 97/38
 

The Polish book Wydawnictwo Militaria 258: Panzerabwehr Artillerie (publ. 2006) features a table that shows ammunition production for German anti-tank guns during WW2 – including the Pak 97/38:

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9602/jerryatammo.jpg

The ‘HL’ refers to HEAT. ‘SpGr’ is HE. I think the ‘PzGr 40’ is AP.¹ Using these definitions the total production of ammunition for the Pak 97/38 was 2,812,700 HE, 2,581,900 HEAT and 1,394,100 AP. The HEAT figures match those quoted by cbo.

I doubt whether the Germans palmed off all of their AP rounds to their allies. The captured technical data sheet I posted earlier shows that they were using them in the Summer of 1944.

¹ The Polish book describes the Pak 97/38 ‘PzGr’ round as ‘przeciwpancerne’ – which I think roughly translates as ‘anti-tank’.

Re: PaK 97/38
 

PzGr 40 usually means a subcaliber HVAP-type round, which sounds rather odd for this weapon - nor have I ever read anything about subcaliber ammunition being used with this gun.
There was a PzGr 40 W (Weicheisen) round, which was a full caliber AP round made of soft steel and had quite low penetration but did a lot of damage due to spalling and plugging. May have made a bit more sense for this gun, but I have never seen any refences to that either.

Also, the fact that some 400.000 were made in 1944, when few, if any PzGr 40 were made due to tungsten shortages also suggest that there is something fishy with those figures.


I wouldn't put too much faith in those "technical sheets" - they were put together by the German ministry of armaments in an attempt at making a complete catalogue of German weaponry in 1944 and it also lists obsolete stuff and ammunition and weapons that were only available in small numbers.
These sheets also contain their share of errors.

I got the complete catalogue as published by the German Waffen-Journal many years ago.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

Hi cbo, Patronenmeister,

it also struck me as very odd that the AP round is listed as a ‘PzGr 40’ APCR. I suppose it could be an inaccurate designation for an AP round (such as the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p)) produced using a Polish design and/or components. On the other hand, maybe no AP rounds were produced at all. It is interesting that the table provides figures regarding HEAT round production which match those you found elsewhere. Perhaps all the figures are questionable. Or maybe the Polish authors of the recently published book came across some info we haven't seen elsewhere.

The technical sheets are interesting historical documents. One of my books seems to have been largely based upon them. The Pak 97/38 sheet has some useful information. The penetration stats, for example, are the same as you have quoted elsewhere. It’s a shame that the sheet for the Pak 97/38 isn’t as complete as many of the others.

redcoat2

Re: PaK 97/38
 

It turns out that it is likely that the author of the Polish book used exactly the same source as I did - Hahns "Waffen und Geheimwaffen....". He just read the table on page 115 wrong :)

As he read the ammunition production figures, he went from the 7,5cm PaK 97/38 for which only HL rounds are listed and down to the next line which lists SpGr (HE) and the next line which lists PzGr. (AP), missing the fact that the two last figures are not for the PaK 97/38 but for a 7,62cm gun - probably the PaK 36(r).
Why he added the "40" is anybodys guess....

Hahn does not list his sources precisely, but others have had fingers on the same tables in the German Archives and Hahns numbers appear to add up compared with the original paperwork.

They are interesting, and contains some information that is not easy to come by in other sources (prices on equipment, barrel wear, consumption of rawmaterials etc.). But they should not be mistaken for technical documents as manuals, design drawings or Waffenamt correspondance regarding the technical properties of various weapons.
Their purpose was not as technical documentation, but rather as a catalogue of weapons that the bureaucrats working for RfRuK could use in their work.
As you point out, many of the entries are incomplete, just as there are plain errors and data that does not quite line up with other sources.

When they were published back in 1976 by Waffen-Revue in Germany, they probably were an important new addition to the publicly available sources on German weapons and were used as a reference by various authors, including Walther Speilberger, renowned for his volumes on German armour from the same period.

Today, much of the data can be aquired from sources based on archival research in papers with more reliable information, but it is still a nice compilation of data, with some unusual snippets of information.

cbo

Re: PaK 97/38
 

cbo,

thanks for looking into the mystery of the AP production figures in the table I posted. I’ve read in a couple of places that the Germans produced AP rounds for the Pak 97/38 – or its predecessors the 7,5 cm FK 231(f) and FK 97(p) - but I don’t know of any hard evidence.

I guess there are two possible reasons why the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p) appears on the technical sheet in 1944: (1) it was still in stock because it was not the gunners’ first choice or (2) it was a clerical error. The sheet may be accurate because the person that filled it in did not include the early HEAT rounds issued when the gun was first introduced. They may have been used up by 1944 whereas the AP round may still have been hanging around.

Cheers,

redcoat2

Re: PaK 97/38
 

If the gun was issued in spring/early summer 1942, the early HEAT round - the one without a prefix - was probably no longer in production. IIRC this was the round introduced in the summer of 1940 and withdrawn again early in 1941 after combat testing in Africa. The Hl/A arrived in the summer of 1941, apparently.
Curiously, the Hl/A, B and C are all mentioned for the PaK 97/38 and the PaK 40, while only the Hl/C for the 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 is mentioned.

It would appear to be an inconsistency..?

As for the Polish AP round - it is anybodys guess. Could be that the people compiling the sheets just copied the ammo data off the available manuals, som being old and others more recent. Who knows :)

cbo