PaK 97/38

[sturmovik]

I'm getting mixed messages on the German PaK 97/38 that was made from captured French 75's. About half the sources I can find (including Wikiepdia) indicate that the gun primarily used a HEAT round due to its low velocity and achieved a penetration of 90mm and that the AP round was not used/issues due to excessive recoil. Other sources say that the French and Polish AP rounds were used primarily because the HEAT shell was not developed was not developed until later in the war (or not at all).

Can anyone clarify how the PaK 97/38's were actually employed by the Germans? The HEAT load seems reasonable given that 75mm HEAT shells were appearing in the loads of the short barreled Panzer IVs about that time.

[DRG]

German Artillery of World War Two
Ian V. Hogg

PP 202-203

Hogg says the 7.5 K Gr Patr (p) was AP shot that had been part of the Polish army stocks so would have been available when the gun was issued

The HEAT round was German Manufactured but the case and charge came from captured French stock and was, in fact the 7.5cm FK38 shell with the substitution of a copper driving band for the sintered one used in the German gun.

Hogg goes on to say the gun was not particularly successful owing to it's low muzzle velocity and it was also unpopular with the troops because of an inherent instability when fired and a high carriage failure rate ( the carriage was the same as the 5cm PAK 38 and the muzzle brake was fitted to reduce the recoil stress arrising from the up gunned carriage )

Muzzle velocities

HE-- 1893 fps
AP---1870 fps
HEAT-1476 fps

The gun didn't last long as a front line weapon on the Eastern front but was used on West Wall defences. He also seems to indicate the HEAT round was provided when the gun was issued ( quote "a hollow charge round was provided" no indication is was a late development)

Don

[redcoat2]

This picture shows a captured Wehrmacht data sheet for the PaK 97/38:



The gunners who used this sheet had two types of ammunition: a 6.8 kg Polish AP shot (the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p)) and a 4.8 kg ‘French’ HEAT round (the 7.5 cm Gr.38/97 HL/C (f)). I’d guess that the Germans may also have used the other HEAT and HE rounds listed in wikipedia.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by sturmovik

I'm getting mixed messages on the German PaK 97/38 that was made from captured French 75's. About half the sources I can find (including Wikiepdia) indicate that the gun primarily used a HEAT round due to its low velocity and achieved a penetration of 90mm and that the AP round was not used/issues due to excessive recoil. Other sources say that the French and Polish AP rounds were used primarily because the HEAT shell was not developed was not developed until later in the war (or not at all).

Can anyone clarify how the PaK 97/38's were actually employed by the Germans? The HEAT load seems reasonable given that 75mm HEAT shells were appearing in the loads of the short barreled Panzer IVs about that time.

AFAIK the first guns were issued late spring/early summer 1942 as part of a crash programme to provide the troops with something more adequate that the 3,7cm anti-tank gun to supplement the 5cm guns and the few 7,5cm long guns available (re-chambered Soviet 7,62cm field guns being part of the same proramme).

With regards to ammunition, there were plenty of captured French HE available (5,5 million rounds) as well as stocks of French and Polish AP. Allegedly the captured ammo was used first, but 929,400 HEAT rounds were made in 1942 and 37,800 fired together with 91,000 HE rounds (no data for AP). So clearly, the HEAT round became available quite soon after the gun was introduced.

Production of the gun ran out in 1943 after 3700 had been made. Production of the HEAT round continued into 1944 with more the 2,5 million being made.

In 1943 371,000 HEAT rounds were fired together with 1,123,000 HE rounds, the figures for 1944 was 592,000 and 4,105,000 respectively. I guess it shows that while the gun is often seen as an anti-tank gun, in reality it was perhaps more of an infantry gun.

About 500 guns were lost in 1942, some 650 in 1943, some 800 in 1944. By March 1945, the German Army had 122 guns left and some 700,000 rounds of HE and 630,000 rounds of HEAT.

I doubt that excessive recoil had anything to do with few AP rounds being fired. IIRC the AP round and the HE round was roughly the same weight and fired at the same velocity, so recoil forces would've been similar. And the numbers of HE rounds fired clearly suggest that the gun was up to the task. Seems more likely to me that the AP round was abandoned as soon as the HEAT round became available because of the superior performance of the latter (70mm penetration in the 1942 round, up to 100mm in the later types).

A report on the gun from february 1943 states that the Soviet T-34 tank could be engaged with some succes at ranges from 200-800 meters. The gun was very good against enemy infantry, easily concealed due to its low heigt and easy to lay due to well-placed elevation and traverse controls. On the downside was the lack of tracer on the ammunition, the slow operation of the breech and the tendency of the gun to jump when fired. This lead to high ammunition expenditure and a slow rate of fire. One report speaks of 12-24 rounds fired in order to defeat an enemy tank, a lot higher than, say, the 7,5cm PaK 40.

cbo

[redcoat2]

After looking at the data sheet again I've realised that it provides more information about the ammunition used by the gun in the bottom right hand corner - under 'Patronen.' There is a list of four types of HE shell (Sprgr.) along with the two anti-tank rounds I mentioned earlier. The HE shells might be those listed in the wikipedia. I should have looked through the whole form before I posted it.

[sturmovik]

Thank you all for the confirmation. Someone might want to review the ammo load outs on Axis Pak 97 AT-gun units. They are heavily weighted to standard AP instead of HEAT.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by cbo

Production of the gun ran out in 1943 after 3700 had been made. Production of the HEAT round continued into 1944 with more the 2,5 million being made.

In 1943 371,000 HEAT rounds were fired together with 1,123,000 HE rounds, the figures for 1944 was 592,000 and 4,105,000 respectively. I guess it shows that while the gun is often seen as an anti-tank gun, in reality it was perhaps more of an infantry gun.

About 500 guns were lost in 1942, some 650 in 1943, some 800 in 1944. By March 1945, the German Army had 122 guns left and some 700,000 rounds of HE and 630,000 rounds of HEAT.

I doubt that excessive recoil had anything to do with few AP rounds being fired. IIRC the AP round and the HE round was roughly the same weight and fired at the same velocity, so recoil forces would've been similar. And the numbers of HE rounds fired clearly suggest that the gun was up to the task.

Help me out with these figures.

If 3,700 guns were made, and they lost about 1,150 before 1944, leaving 2,550. In 1944 they fired at least 4,697,000 rounds (592,000 HEAT plus 4,105,000 HE; not including AP)

Even if we don't consider the guns lost during 1944 (800) that's at least 1,842 rounds fired per gun in the year 1944.

Is that what these stats are saying?

I guess that's only about half a dozen rounds a day, and the barrel life may be over 10,000 rounds right?

cheers,
Cross

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

If 3,700 guns were made, and they lost about 1,150 before 1944, leaving 2,550. In 1944 they fired at least 4,697,000 rounds (592,000 HEAT plus 4,105,000 HE; not including AP)

Even if we don't consider the guns lost during 1944 (800) that's at least 1,842 rounds fired per gun in the year 1944.

Is that what these stats are saying?

That stats are saying what the stats are saying - what we make of them is a different matter

You can average the figures like you do, but there are obvious problems involved in doing so. The 800 guns lost probably also fired some ammunition and some guns might have been deployed in places where they didn't get much of chance to fire while others got pleny of chances to do so.
Ammunition expenditure probably includes rounds fired in training and may also include ammunition lost when captured by the enemy.

So who knows how many shots the guns really fired...?

Originally Posted by Cross

I guess that's only about half a dozen rounds a day, and the barrel life may be over 10,000 rounds right?

No idea about barrel life of this gun. The 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 used in the Panzer IV was rated at 12.000-14.000 rounds and the 7,5cm le FK 18 L/26 at 8.000-10.000 rounds. The 7,5cm PaK 40 L/46 was rated at 6.000 rounds. I suppose you could say that the French gun fell somewhere in between the former two and the latter in terms of barrel length and muzzle velocity and perhaps also barrel wear.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by sturmovik

Thank you all for the confirmation. Someone might want to review the ammo load outs on Axis Pak 97 AT-gun units.

There is only ONE Pak 97/38 in the game and it's in the German OOB. If you believe there are others please detail which OOB and which unit number

Originally Posted by sturmovik

They are heavily weighted to standard AP instead of HEAT.

"Heavily weighted" ??? Given that one unit has an ammo loadout of ...

30 HE
22 AP
23 HEAT

How do you figure 23 HEAT vs 22 AP makes that "heavily weighted to standard AP" ??? If it was 35 AP and 10 HEAT I could see your point. I can even see that there may be a point to be made that there should be a bit more HEAT and a bit less AP ( perhaps 30 HEAT and 15 AP ) but I am at loss to see how anyone could say the existing ammo loadout is "Heavily weighted" in favour of AP over HEAT unless they are naturally given to exaggeration

Don

[sturmovik]

There is only ONE Pak 97/38 in the game and it's in the German OOB. If you believe there are others please detail which OOB and which unit number

Romania OB 39
Unit 200 40 AP 10 HEAT
Unit 206 45 AP 5 HEAT

Hungary OB 38
Unit 031 40 AP 5 HEAT
Unit 174 50 AP 0 HEAT

Czechoslovakia OB 37
Unit 080 30 AP 0 HEAT

Finland OB 35
Unit 043 40 AP 0 HEAT

Italy OB 34
Unit 102 40 AP 10 HEAT

Bulgaria OB 19
Unit 85 40 AP 0 HEAT

Slovak Republic OB 01
Unit 80 30 AP 0 HEAT

I mean its plausible that the Germans foisted off their stocks of Polish and French AP ammo onto their allies (if that is what the OBs are trying to indicate), but given that the HEAT shell production numbers appear to be valid I would say that the Pak 97/38 was primarily a HEAT weapon and should have few if any AP rounds be it Germany or second tier powers.

BTW, check out the 20549 lbm. It seems like a much clearer depiction of the weapon than the default 209 lbm.