NZ M10 tank busters
 

I have a couple of suggestions for the New Zealand OOB (spob15): (1) add the 3-inch M10 self-propelled gun and (2) bring forward the availability date of the 17-pdr M10 ‘Achilles’ from January 1946. They were used by the 7th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal New Zealand Artillery, in Italy.

The 3-inch M10 was introduced in June 1944 according to this (referenced) website:

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/m.../us/simm10.htm

It appears to have been in use by July 1944 according to the photos on these webpages:

http://www.san-casciano.com/NZ-advance.htm

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/te...2Ita-c5-2.html

The New Zealanders used the 3-inch M10 until the end of the war – as did the British in Italy. It was largely phased out of use in NW Europe by December 1944 and replaced with 17-pdr M10s. The Italian Front was the poor relation and not all 3-inch M10s were replaced by wars end.

The book British Tank Destroyer Achilles 17-pdr M10 SP by Wojciech J. Gawrych says that New Zealanders also used 17-pdr M10s in Italy during the war. It does not specify when they were delivered though. However, it does provide a couple of photos of a NZ 17-pdr M10 (C Troop, 32nd Battery, 7th Anti-Tank Regt.) taken south of Trieste in April 1945:

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7131/nz17pdrm10.jpg

British and Polish Anti-Tank Regts in Italy started to receive 17-pdr M10s from September 1944 – whenever they were taken out of the line for recuperation and re-equipping. The New Zealanders may also have started to receive them during the Autumn.

Background Sources:

M10 and M36 Tank Destroyers 1942-53 (pub. 2002) by Steven J. Zaloga
British Tank Destroyer Achilles 17-pdr M10 SP (pub. 2007) by Wojciech J. Gawrych

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

Now on the list..

Don

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

Dig around and see what you come up with for the Archer

Don

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

Do you want me to look for a NZ Archer or an Aussie or NZ Archer?

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

As SP doesn't discriminate between theatres - as far as availability is concerned - I should mention that British units in France had the 17Pdr M10 Achilles in time for D-Day. But they were in short supply.

Only 124 had been converted to 17Pdr by D-day. When they were lost, they were often replaced by the more abundant 3in M10 'Wolverine' to the dismay of the crews.

Photo of Achilles in June 44:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27840099@N02/3001613059/


Cross

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

Yes, just to confirm they were in use and if yes, when

Don

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

I am in no way implying that the availability date for the British 17-pdr M10 is incorrect. The first 17-pdr M10s were delivered to units earmarked for Normandy in May 1944. I’m only looking at the availability of the NZ M10. If the British in Italy were starting to get 17-pdr M10s from September then it is possible that the New Zealanders – who were also in Italy - were getting them at around the same time

The conversion of the M10 to the 17-pdr M10 was quite slow at first because the work was originally undertaken at only one Royal Ordnance factory in Woolwich. Conversion rates increased in September 1944 after other RO factories in Ellesmere Port and Nottingham joined the effort. 430 M10s had been converted by the end of September and 708 by the end of November.

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

One of my local libraries has a book about NZ armour in Italy. I'll pick it up later. I'm not sure whether I can help with the Aussies.

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

I’ve had a look through Jeffrey Plowman’s book about the NZ 2nd Division in Italy. I’m 99% certain that the New Zealanders didn’t use the Archer there. As for the Australians, I don’t have any books about their armour as such. I don’t think they had the Archer though. AFAIK they didn’t have any ground units in Europe at the time the Archer was used – and I don’t think they or the New Zealanders would have used it in the SW Pacific. I had a quick look at some Australian websites and I couldn’t find anything. Perhaps someone else knows more?

The Plowman book confirms that the 7th Anti-tank Regiment received 3-inch M10s in June 1944 and used them in combat in July. It also uses the photos of a NZ 17-pdr M10 that I posted above. Unfortunately it does not say when the 17-pdr M10s were introduced. It might have been October 1944 because the Regiment was reorganised at that time. This diagram shows a Battery sometime after the reorganisation.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7...batteryorg.jpg

The M10s and towed 17-pdrs were in Troops of four guns. The diagram seems to show a 17-pdr M10 (gun C2) with three 3-inch M10s.

When I was looking through the armoured units in the book I noticed that the New Zealanders used Shermans up-gunned with 17-pdrs. I would therefore like to suggest a couple more possible updates for the New Zealand OOB: (1) bring forward the availability start date for the VC Firefly (spob15/ Unit 025) and (2) add the Sherman Hybrid IC (spob07/ Unit 302).

The Plowman book says that the VC Firefly was “first received around October 1944.” They were originally issued to Squadron HQs. The book also says that the Sherman Hybrid IC was used before the VC Firefly “late in 1944” - without being more specific.

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

On the list..........

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

The Archer issue is turning into quite the little research project. So far I have not been able to find any source that says the Archer was used by anyone else but the Brits and the Egyptians but we have it used in a number of nations in both SPWW2 and SPMBT and I cannot just assume whoever put them there in the first place was wrong so the search for information goes on. One source says it stayed in limited service with the Brits until near the end of the 1940's which throws the 12/45 end date in SPWW2 we have now into doubt.

That said I just found a source that lists the Archer as used by the Poles in Italy.




Don

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

I found a little info here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/526633/Enc...f-WWII-Weapons

Page 51 says the British Army continued to use it until the mid 1950s.

And interestingly, it seems like the original game designers have the Archer back-to-front! The Archer's 17pdr was rear facing. Unless there are game code limitations for this.


Cross

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

There is no such thing as a rear facing gun in the SP universe. So the Archer goes everywhere in permanent reverse.

Andy

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

It was the "Achilles" that lasted to the mid fiftys not the Archer. I own that book and that bit of info is wrong. Another source clears that up

As for the Icon, a few seconds thought as to how the game handles Icons and targets enemys should give you an idea why it's backwards in the game. ( seriously...think about how it works. Icons turn to FACE the enemy, how could it do that if the guns pointed to the rear )


Don

Re: NZ M10 tank busters
 

I have only seen British, Polish and Egyptian Archers - although I haven't really searched for others. I’m not sure whether the Egyptians were even supposed to have them in any case. When I was working in Cairo a local told me that the British dumped some Archers in the desert and that years later the Egyptians came along and restored them.

British and American Tanks of WWII: The complete illustrated history of British, American & Commonwealth tanks, 1939-1945 says that the “Archer equipped anti-tank battalions of British armoured divisions in NW Europe from October 1944 onwards. It remained in service until the mid fifties with the British Army, and Archers were also supplied to several other armies in post-war years.” It does not mention any other users during WW2 - including the Poles (7th Anti-Tank Regt., II Polish Corps) who used them in Italy - or specify which countries got them after the war.

Going back to the NZ armoured units in Italy I would like to make another suggestion for spob15: add the Sherman III (spob07/ Unit 303) to the NZ OOB. The Plowman book seems to show that the Sherman III was the standard tank used by the NZ 4th Armored Brigade. The brigade was in Italy from October/November 1943 onwards.