Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Hi again,

So, if no replay log, no chance to evidence the marvel what instantly appear (and dissapear)from the bottom line, under the form of asterics ! Let's figure out what's I'm talking about:
the main reason for what I was moving from SPWAW to SPWW2 after years of playing is a much better battle accuracy. And that in many ways. One is the Small Amo HE Penetration positive results !!!
Because I was intrigued by the Non penetrating messages from many rifle sized amo vs. armored target (with distinct sound) I suspected much more in the game routines. So, I maked a test. Because the OOB's offered only HE amo for an 7.62 mm TMG, I used the editor and gave only AP amo's ! And with that I started a custom made scenario and fired hundreds of times upon an armored tarhet with armor=1. And, I left AP penetration=0. After only a few shots the marvel TAKE PLACE !!! Huray ! Huray ! A 2 asterics indicated damage and indeed the crew was lowered by 1 on target. So, it's possible like in reality was/is. Always, are weaker spots, opened slits, etc and even the amo didn't have the power to penetrate a 1 still damage occurs. Off course, very rare, but occurs. And after I wanted to repeat that to be sure I'm not seeing ghosts. But, now, after 80 or 90 shots, one resulted in an asterics. OK. It's REAL.
Now, I'm wandering if somebody ''managed'' to have such results with rifle HE amo. I am not disposed to test another hundreds of shots. I suspected YES. Because it's real too. So, combat routines details were not dissapointed me at all by now.
Only one question: can somebody to point the percentage of this kind of shots ?

L.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

So, noone ever encountered a damage from HE=0 penetration buletts ?

L.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Oh yeah, I have had machine guns damage armored vehicles before. I do not recall if they were pen 1 or pen 0 though... It happens occasionally...usually when you least want it to in a PBEM game :)

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

HE rounds will sometimes penetrate light armor, for example, .50 cal rounds will bother things with armor 1 or 2, grenades will do the same, but usually have better results due to warhead size, so don't hesitate to machinegun down those pesky apcs, direct fire mortars and other HE guns will do it as well, You will also note the "weak spot" hit thing, that is a very nice feature, as it will grant you a bonus to the penetration value, this is especially useful for ATR and light guns.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Armour can sustain damage from 0 HE if it has an open top.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Yes, all af this are obvious. But I strongly questioned for HE=0 penetration, not ATR, not 12,5 mm (which obvious have HE=1), not open top,not light guns, etc just plain damage from ordinary bullet warsized=1 !!:happy:
Just read my thread for what I was done.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

you probably had the tank toughness reduced, if it's too low, pistol rounds will penetrate tanks.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

No, I hadn't.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

And I forget where I read that maximum penetration is extented with the following formula:
extrapenetration=HE penetration + Warhead size.
So, if we had HE=2, warhead=3, and armor=4, in some cases (I don't know the percentage) we get damage, despite the fact that normally the penetration is lower than the armor value.
So, with the same principle, for the rifle ammo (for example) HE=0, Warhead size=1, we must have a penetration of 1 !!!:up: in some circumstances. Again, I don't know the odds. Maybe is usefull somebody from the developers to state that.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Very, very, VERY low. i never had a 0 pen rifle penetrate anything, only heavy rifles and machineguns

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Go into the main game folder. There's a file in there called 'WW2_APCALC.exe'

This program will tell you the maximum penetration for every weapon.

But make sure you read the notes:

WW2_APCALC_HELP.TXT

When APCalc first starts up it will automatically load the first valid OOB.
Use the arrow button on the "Select OOB" drop down combo box to select
a different OOB.

When you select a weapon, APCalc will display the average result from
1000 calculations at various range increments starting with 50 yards. AP and
Sabot will both display a result up to and beyond the maximum range of
the weapon with a drop to zero or -1 indicating the maximum
range has been
exceeded or that type of ammo is not rated. A weapon with no AP or Sabot
ratings will show zero and -1 from 50 yards. A weapon with poor AP
performance for example may drop to zero quite quickly but still show a
"Best" result of 1 or 2 up to it's maximum range but "best" is simply the
highest pen returned of ONE(1) of the 1000 samples of that batch so "best"
is a "golden BB" shot as well, "best" relies on warhead size and chance
factors in order to be achieved, so don't "bet the farm" on it happening
often!.

HE and HEAT have only one result displayed at 50 yards as those types of
rounds are not affected by range but hold that potential penetration up to
the max range of the weapon ( the AP range ) so a weapon may have a 70 hex
range ( 3500 yards ) with HEAT but the calculator will only show the one
result but that result will apply up to the maximum 70 hex range. Both HEAT
and HE results are greatly affected by random factors that use the warhead
size as a starting point so those two types of ammo can show the greatest
fluctuation in this calculator and in the game.

Re-sampling can and will give a different average results sometimes
depending on the influence of the random factors the game uses to calculate
penetration. To resample a weapon simply click on it again and remember
these are AVERAGES. If you see a weapons penetration jump back and forth
between two different numbers frequently it's because the average between
the two numbers is close to 50/50. If you see it change but less frequently
that indicates the possible penetrations average is a wider spread.

NOTE 1

The calculator does not take into account the critical hit for weak spots
allowed when to-hit probability is high (80% or more to-hit) at under 500
metres.

NOTE 2

Penetration happens when the pen value is greater or equal to the armour of
the target. This is less so for HE, which usually requires over penetration,
especially if the warhead size is low. This calculator also has nothing to
say about the behind armour calculations which convert penetration to damage
or kills those are done AFTER a penetration has occurred.

---



Cross

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Very good but not usefull in that particular situation. For my Maxim TMG the value for HE=0,AP=0 and the best HE=0 and best AP=0. No matter how many times I reclick on it the values are the same. That's what I didn't encountered in the game sometimes....My experiment shows clearly damages !!!Maybe more ''ocult'' parameters
are counted in the game engine. By the way, how are managed the ''weak spot'' and ''extrapenetration'' for this warhead size =1 and HE=0 ?? I'm very curious, because it's obvious that after hundred or thousands of common bullets fired onto armour=0 from close range, especially at older armors, a little procentage will hit some weapon slits, sighting slits, weak bolts, etc, and get damage. I was read some kind of happenings in ww2.:)

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

I don't ask for brute penetration which is obvious, but some kind of very, very rare situation of weak spots, extrapenetration, etc...

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

weak spots do exist and experienced crews usually hit it at close range, but i think that only applies to ap or heat rounds, not sure if HE has weak spot bonus

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Now, that's a precise answer. Can somebody confirm/infirm that for HE rounds ?

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

The weak spot code is disallowed for HE type ammo.

Size 1 HE ammo with HE pen 0 will only penetrate class 0 armour or soft vehicle targets. Additional pen is based on Warhead size-1, after all!. There may well be a one in a million case of enough factors in the rest of the spaghetti that it does get through class 1, but I have never seen it in 10+ years of play. You may have hit that one in a million though - I am not going to categorically deny it cannot happen.

It may well have sometimes happened in the old SSI code - but ours requires HE ammo to have an over-penetration to be as effective as an equivalent AP round. (i.e. HE pen is less effective especially for smaller WH sizes).

Therefore, I am rather doubtful of your claim. Perhaps the target vehicle had a class 0 armour aspect (e.g. turret rear).

There is also the special case of fortifications (bunkers, forts, but not an ammo bunker - it is a vehicle class). Those are permeable to HE ammo. (Crew casualties through the firing ports etc). Were you shooting at a fort?.

Andy

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Therefore, I am rather doubtful of your claim. Perhaps the target vehicle had a class 0 armour aspect (e.g. turret rear).

There is also the special case of fortifications (bunkers, forts, but not an ammo bunker - it is a vehicle class). Those are permeable to HE ammo. (Crew casualties through the firing ports etc). Were you shooting at a fort?.

Andy[/quote]

What fort ? I never speak about that. And never speak about having a penetration of Size 1 HE ammo with HE pen 0, only asking for weak spot/extrapenetration in that PARTICULAR situation. Because other HE>0 have that, I can't imagine why this can't, especially when size 1 AP ammo with AP pen 0 do !!!. Off course having a lot lot less chance, but it's in the same principle. So, I never can't believe why a full squad aimed rifle fire from point blank range (or more sugestive sniper fire :up:)don't have the chance of ''weak spots''

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

HE is not an AP round - so does not get weak spot extra penetration for direct aimed fire. Only AP/Sabot/HEAT does.

Also, I think I am getting confused - perhaps because English is not your mother tongue?.

I originally took your postings to mean that you had seen rifle fire penetrate armour.

But on reflection - I think that you are actually asking for rifle fire to be able to penetrate light armour?. Sorry, but that will not change.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

OK, I understand. But, please tell me why a sniper aimed rifle from 50 meters can't entered throw vision slit of an armor ? Especially when armor is not on the move and the experience of the sniper is high ? Those situations were very common in ww2, I read about many of them in books. Or, how you imagine a sniper suppression fire at such a vehicle to be ? A no chance tracks/plates chaotic fire which surely attract response fire or a more usefull one trying to find a way throw the driver/gunner slit or something like that ? So, if it's wanted to improve the game to be more challenging and accurate/realistic, here's one good place.Sorry my language but I am NOT insisting for rifle brute penetration fire, but for such above situations ! And never encountered ones, only when I was gaming with the OOB editor and give to rifles some AP rounds instead of the common HE ones. In fact that's not such a stupid thing, when it's a fact that in ww2 ''Between 80 and 90 % of all 7,9mm ammunition produced was of the 7,9 sS (sS for schweres Spitzgeschoss = "heavy pointed bullet") type''......and ''The regular sS projectile had the following penetration performance: 85cm of dry pine wood at 100m, 65cm at 400m, 45cm at 800m and 10cm at 1,800m; 10mm of iron at 300m, 7mm at 550m; 5mm of steel at 100m; 3mm at 600m.''
These numbers tell from themselves.

Thank you.

Leo.

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

The minimum armour value in SP is one centimetre (10mm) - so such marginal rounds are not part of the game. Never have been and never will be, especially for HE (ball) rifle ammo.

Shooting through vision slits etc is way beyond the scope of a game set at the company and battalion level.

Perhaps some micro-tactical game out there which deals in individual men at the sub-section tactical level allows for such?. I have never seen it (You would need extra data for vehicles with and without armoured vision blocks, or using periscopes etc - or a 1917 Renault 17 would be treated exactly the same as an M1 Abrams).

Andy

Re: Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration
 

Laugh sorry just the comments about penetration & pine.
Pine has to be the softest wood in the world I can mark it with my fingernail if I try.