Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

I know that the Kar 98k Rifle has a range of 500m and a HE Kill of 1. Is there any way to determine what is a maximum "best" range for it to engage, i.e. before accuracy drops off too much? Same for say a Russian SMG unit. I know in general the rifle squad would have an advantage at a distance.

There is an AP Penetration Calculator that shows values in 50m aliquots. Not sure is there anything like that for rifles, etc. firing on infantry.

Thanks.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Rifle/SMG Effectiveness is more a factor of your units experience and morale ( + suppression and damage ) and that of the enemy unit you are firing at.

Better units in good shape hit better than poor ones in poor shape

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Well a search showed this from Wiki. Not sure how reliable it is but here are the values:
Maximum firing range‎: ‎4,700 m (5,140 yd) with ... Action‎: ‎Bolt-action
Effective firing range‎: ‎500 m (550 yd) with iron ... Barrel length‎: ‎600 mm (23.62 in)

So I guess the in-game Range value is the maximum effective range? (Not thinking about op-fire filtering or anything like that.)

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Maximum firing range is how far the bullet will go. Soldiers in combat almost never try for maximum range. Bullets are light and the greater the distance the greater the deviation from the target.

troopie

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

I understand but let me ask in a different/better way and I am assuming that the weapons can fire farther than the listed range in the Encyclopedia.

So the Kar. 98k has a range of 500m and the PPSH has a range of 150.

All other things such as morale being equal if the German Rifle squad stayed over 150m away they should have the edge right? Not looking for a percentage.

Thanks.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Yes. You can try this yourself, the PPSh won't be able to fire at the rifle squad due to insufficient range.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

In game the range for small arms is a maximum - the Russian SMG unit cannot fire beyond their 150m range.

Effectiveness is not range based (only for AP weapons) but linked to experience and morale of firer and target, suppression, etc.

In a Infantry Vs Infantry fight, if you are in range - blaze away, at worst you should at least suppress the enemy a little to diminish the effectiveness of their return fire.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Thanks everyone. I think I understand now that small arms is different than guns here.

When you mention AP and range I assume you mean the Penetration values you see in the AP Calculator change with range.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Even with small arms, the chance of hitting seems to be quite significantly affected by the range. Long range rifle fire is great for suppressing and causing a casualty here and there, but if you really want to cause casualties quickly then it is best to close within a couple of hexes - just make sure that the enemy is well suppressed before you move close, or you may find yourself in the receiving end of very deadly close range op-fire.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

I was trying to set up a few such units in a Battle and I couldn't find a SMG company or Platoon. Did I miss them or is it just a case of they were just a part of a Rifle platoon for example?

I did find Scouts that has the PPShs.

Thanks.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Yes, scouts are one of them.
Try Guards units too. Or simply select any unit you like, and on the left hand side (of the purchase-screen), you can choose different weapon's composition for that unit. Here for example, for the same "Guards Section" unit, you can have four different flavors (unit's ability & weapon compositions):


Also try different date/year.
Make sure the visibility is also enough/greater than the maximum firing range.

Now, since you're experimenting with the range of the PPSh only, you must disable the other firearms for that unit (by left clicking on the firearm from the unit info screen i.e when you right click that unit on the battlefield; so now the firearm is listed blue/gray instead of yellow colored).

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

What year was this? There are SMG companies and platoons in the Soviet OOB, but they only become available around 1942 or so (you can check the exact dates from Mobhack).

Historically, the pre-war Soviet doctrine did not consider SMG as a proper military weapon, and there were just a few thousand such weapons in the whole country. However, by the time Winter War was over the leadership had changed their mind, and Soviet industry started to design and produce SMGs - and as war progressed they were issued to infantry units in ever larger numbers.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

No need to test really some troops have SMG as an additional weapon so slot 3 or 4 some have as main weapon.
SMG are more effective close up but cannot fire above there max range normally 3.
If they do not have a longer range weapon such as a LMG they are close range fighters only.
Rifle is more flexible not quite as hard hitting close up but can engage at greater range.
Carbines are again short ranged normally 5 hexes but with no close up be benefit.
Other weapons like flame throwers, demo charges shotguns are only effective in the same or adjacent hex.

Riflemen are your all rounders the others are really assault troops pack a bit more punch in close area fighting like woods & towns.
Stats you are intreasted in to understand small arms in WWII
Range max range the weapon can fire, accuracy falls off as range increases.
Accuracy higher more chance to hit, rifle 1 smg 2 or 3
HE kill higher it is the more damage is likely to be caused if you hit.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

And comparing an SMG in weapon slot 2+ against the rifles in slot 1 is also superfluous.

As mentioned in the mobhack help somewhere - infantry prime weapons (rifle smg) in slot 1 are multiplied by number of firers (section size in other words) and this reduces as range does. Infantry prime weapons in slots >1 dont get multiplied. So if you want to compare a section with SMG against a same sized one with rifles - ensure your test items have them in slot 1 and have the same crew size.

As to the ranges - these are what was determined as maximum effective ranges by SSI back in the day. SMG 2-3 hexes, full-fat rifles at 10, assault rifle and carbines usually 8. LMG of the same calibre usually have a 2 hex advantage. The ranges are for game purposes, and have zero relation to how far a bullet might theoretically kill if it hit - a .22 rim-fire is able to kill at a mile, but the chance of a hit is negligible.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Heck, he's curious about Rifle & SMG ranges so let him test it, there's nothing wrong with that (if anything we should thank him for experimenting, probably he'll find some bugs or errors). And as we all know, weapon ranges are not affected by how many men, morale, experience, weapon slot etc in a unit.

When talking purely about "ranges" in SP, it's only about fire or no fire. Anything beyond the weapon's set ranges (as stated in the info screen), and it won't fire.

But when talking about "effectiveness" (define "effectiveness"?), as already said, it's very subjective, and has loads of variables influencing it.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Thanks but I couldn't see the googleuser content for some reason. I assume you meant the screen I have attached?

I see the PPSh on there and some of the variations have the PPS. Would each of the 10 men have the smg? In one case there is a LMG so how many out of the 10 would man that?

It's very interesting to me - I am not questioning the OOB in any way. The variations for the SMG Platoon seem to differ on type of smg in this case and also in terms of grenades, AT stuff etc.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Thanks for the history. I have tried many WW II tactical games and I know some of the history and weapons but nothing like the knowledge of people on here.

I changed the year from '39 to '44 and found the SMG Platoon.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Yes, the same as your attached screenshot.

In abstract terms, yes, each of those 10 men have SMG so long as its weapon slot #1. But inside the game it doesn't translate into anything specifically ten (you won't see 10 individual bursts or tracers). Keep in mind though, if the unit takes more casualties (thus reduced men), then the number of shots per turn is also reduced (the number on the bottom screen that says something like 6:4:3:1 now says 3:2:1:0) etc.

Aside from the "completeness" of the unit (how many men), Number of shots are also affected by whether you have moved/expended movement points, whether you're suppressed/pinned, the amount of experience, etc etc. It's all interlocked & affecting, these myriad variables. But regarding weapon range, it all comes down to two things only: within range, or, out of range.

As you can see on the unit's Number of Shot, the LMG has less shot per turn compared to the SMG, because LMG is not on weapon slot #1, thus presumably not all men have the LMG.

It's okay to question the OOB, but make sure you have good quality source to back it up, otherwise you'll get smashed. I'm not a fan of dabbling with OOB either, mostly about gameplay & mechanics, and maps.

Yes, lots of flavors for a single unit. This game is very flexible.

Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range
 

Regarding the presence (or not) of the DP LMG, historically there were two types of SMG platoons in the Red Army: those that were fully armed with SMGs, and those that also had an LMG in every squad. And different close range anti-tank weapons were introduced as war progressed.

As for the issue of "how many guns a weapon slot entry represents", the rule of thumb is that one slot equals one weapon. The following exceptions apply:

1.) The weapon name or description mentions that it represents multiple guns. Examples include German panzergrenadiers with 2 MGs in single slot, US rifle squads with 2 or 3 BARs in single slot and various multi-barrel AA-weapons. In these cases the effect of multiple guns is represented in game terms with increased HE kill value.

2.) The weapon is infantry personal small arm (rifle, carbine, SMG etc.) present in weapon slot 1 of an infantry unit. In this case the entry means that every man in the unit is treated as being armed with the weapon in question, and the effect of the weapon is multiplied by up to the number of men left in the unit.

3.) Multiple rocket launchers: in this case a single weapon entry represents a number of launch tubes/rails.

4.) Certain aircraft armaments, which use the AP ammo slot to designate the number of guns of certain type present.


When a slot represents munitions that can be used on their own (hand grenades, satchel charges, panzerfausts etc.) without a need for an external launcher, they are still treated as one weapon per entry for the game purposes.