The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

I have a friend who is fighting for the first time against the Talisman coupled with the ablity to match or out produce him. ( We are talking Race characteristics) He feels that the combination is un-beatable. At this moment I would reluctantly aggree with him. Any comments out there?

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Try using Wave-Motion Guns (under High Energy Discharge Weapons). Set your ships to point-blank, so that they will close in as much as they can. Get better movement rates than the enemy.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Fyron is right. Here are some more ideas:

The basics:
Ship and fleet training-- you gotta be able to hit him.
Fastest possible ships-- you gotta get to him before you are destroyed
Point Blank-- he may hit 10/10, but if you can hit 9/10....
These are absolutely necessary!

Other ideas
Ripper Beams-- big bang for the kt.
Strip out all armor and shields and go guns, guns, guns!-- untried by me, but sounds promising
Attack his planets-- but don't sit around, keep moving
Null Space as a secondary weapon-- maybe you hit the talisman first shot
Organic race and use that armor!-- so he hits, you just regenerate

Just my ideas, I'll bet there are hundreds more out there.

Kim

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fighters.

Lots and lots of durable fighters; unless he mounts pure PDC, he can't off them very quickly, even with PDC that ALWAYS hit (Talisman), and I'm not sure the Talisman affects PDCs.

Ditto for seekers, if need be.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Ok Good Ideas, but When you look over the choices for race characteristics you think something sounds real neat or it makes perfect sense to use. For instance pushing your research ablity way up is a really good thing. It is until you reach the end game and you have researched everything and you wish you had a little bit more on your race's ship ablity to attack.
Production is a key element and if your opponet can get ahead and increase his production capablity you are doomed.
As time and experience in games go on I find that I have fewer and fewer choices If I want to have a chance to win the game.
The Talisman coupled with good production is really hard to stop. Which means I need my race to be the same if I am to have an equal chance to win the game.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Level 5 PDC's 2 on each ship and a few LC's as anti-fighter ships will take care of the fighter swarms. Sorry, but that is too easy to counter.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Knock the Religous enemy out before they can get Talismans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

When you play games like MFKT where everyone has everything then it changes stuff up a bit, however, part of the religious disadvantage is they dont' get any good stuff until the talisman. and also for a heavy research race, the idea is you are superior and have won, or are in a really good position to do so when you end. also, as you see the end in sight, scrap one or more research facilites on your planets that are all research and put in value improvement plants there or nature shrines for the religious player. this way the conVersion will go easier. You coudl even consider changing over some earlier.

[ August 22, 2002, 05:06: Message edited by: Skulky ]

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

We had a cry for help on these Boards from someone else some months ago. His problem was an enemy using Crystalline Technology and Phased Energy Weapons in combination. That's ARMOR skipping weapons combined with SHIELD skipping weapons. Nasty. Since the game is already in progress you can't try it out this time around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But you could research say, the Null Space Cannon and the Phased Polaron Beam if phased shields aren't to close to being developed. That would also be a nasty combination. Since he has the talisman you can skip ECM and other 'defensive' techs (like stealth armor) in favor of piling up as much shield and armor points as possible.

The classic counter to the Talisman though, is long-ranged weapons. Especially seekers. He can't hit you if you aren't in range.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Has anyone ever tried a massive fighter/missle combo attack? I think if you made really fast fighters, they could engage the enemy before your ships close enough to fire missles. Usually the only way to beat PDC is to flood it, and that's hard to do with either or.

Dunno.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

I'm using meson/missiles/fighters in a PBW game right now; I'll let you know how it turns out. Right now though I'm not actually attacking, just being an isolationist SOB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Close Quarter Combat. You need to reduce his advantage of scoring more hits per time then you. Remember, you can save your ECM against a religious race and you can leave scattering and cloaking armor at home. Nothing of this will help you in the way of the to-hit-chance. This free tonnage could and should go into shields or simple armor so you can take the beating while closing the distance and then GRILL HIM! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

In the stock game fighters and missles are of limeted use agaisnt tailsman. PDC are too easy to build and too powerful against them. And the PDC also gets the guaranteed hit of the tailsman. Not too mention the standard weapons can now be used with great effectiveness against your fighters cause they don't miss anymore.

Your only chance really is as Mephisto says, get in close and pound him to dust. Phased shielding, and your strongest per shot weapons. Throw out the rules about not using the big guns cause they take too long to reload. When you ship only gets one shot before going poof you want it to be the biggest shot you can make it. So this is a case where Null space can be superior to Phased polaron beams.

Also have lots of ships and plan on losing a bunch. If your enemy has tailsman AND can outproduce you are pretty much dead. Learn your lesson and next time take them out sooner.

Geo

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I can beat him EVERY time if his production is not too far ahead. Just give me talisman, computer virus and allegiance subverter! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though, what has your friend got? Can't really give you much advice without the background info.

[ August 22, 2002, 15:53: Message edited by: CW ]

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

This might be a case where relatively small but fast kamikaze ships could be useful. And anti-ship drones, if he has not too many PDC's in his ship designs.
Seek help from other empires. Nothing more dangerous than to be at war with different empires and face the enemies on all sides.

But I agree that the situation is not good for your friend.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

If you can set up a heavy warp-point defense with appropriate equipment, or always run to the far side of warp points and get him to chase you, the point-blank combats with you getting the first round can tip the scales against the talisman.

If you have some peacetime to build up, consider lots and lots of drones, fighters with shields, and mothballed kamikaze ships.

If you don't have other opponents, and his designs mostly use talismans, remember not to waste resources on ECM.

Outmaneuver his fleets strategically with planet-busters, raiders, troop transports, minelayers, and hit planets and cause riots, getting him to split up his fleets.

Start a nova somewhere appropriate.

Most effective though, is probably to use diplomacy - get everyone else convinced they must be ganged up against in an organized and ruthless fashion.

PvK

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...love that line of thinking.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

How about Ship Capture? Use his own Talismans against him.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Especially with Allegience Subverters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

OK Gentle Beings I use the term loosley. When you start a game you don't know what kind of race someone is until you meet them. Usally I play with only the score revealed. If some one gets rapidly ahead then they become the Evil Empire. My point is you need to be an experienced player to recognize DANGER. I really think that Talisman coupled with high productivity is a diffcult combination to beat. I am curious to know if this constitutes a level playing field or not. Any Comments?

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Gozra, now you are asking a totally different question. If you are asking is there anything your friend can do facing an enemy already with Tailsmans and outproducing him, then the answer may be no. But that doesn't mean it's not a level playing field.

In a single planet start it takes a long time to research the Tailsman. Time that you can be using to research lot's of stuff that is useful to take them out before they can get it. No, you can't wait 100 turns for him to come find you. That's why it's important to scout the galaxy as quickly as possible. Not just to find suitable planets, but also to see who is out there waiting for you.

When you find a religious race, attack them. Get their allies to attack them. Knock them out before they get the tailsman. They will be playing from behind for much of the game. But in the end game they will be tough to beat. The key is to get them before the end game.

Every combination of racial attributes and characteristics has it's advantages and disadvantages at different times in the game. You can't beat all the races all the time, but you can beat any races some time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EDIT: Or, if you prefer taking your time, building an empire and then having a grand massive war at the end to determine the winner, then I suggest taking the Tailsman yourself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo

[ August 23, 2002, 00:05: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Everything you said was valid. But I am talking about a combination of religious and Hyperproductive. Properly handled I bet this combo can win at a higher percentage of the time that any other combo. Aggree or disaggree?
I will tell you in order to compete in the game I have had to change the race picks I make. And to choos other wise means a bigger chance of ending up second best.

[ August 23, 2002, 01:05: Message edited by: Gozra ]

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

I'm not sure it's right to characterise the Talisman as an end-game tech. It takes a few research levels to reach, but it's not that expensive, and you can get there relatively quickly if you focus on it. And who says the intermediate levels aren't useful? Shrines are great!

You can for example save a lot of research points by getting DUCs and PDCs and then ignoring all other weapons development. With Talismans, ECM and armour, they're the only weapons you need to make some pretty dangerous ships.

How to counter them?

Long range weapons and max-range tactics, so you are shooting and religion-boy isn't.

Otherwise (as others have already said) maximising your to-hit chances and getting as close as possible, reducing his advantage to a minimum.

The point about play-balance is that he spent 1500 points to get religion. What did you spend yours on? Better Intel ought to let you sabotage his engines or steal his ships. Better production would let you outnumber him. Better research would give you more damaging weapons - he may be hitting more often, but when you hit, it hurts a lot more. Etc.

Mark

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500. And as players get better at the supporting techniques that along with Tailsman make it so devastating, that may go down. But I am convinced that the very fact of the effectivness of the technique will help the use of it to be self limiting. As religious race players get a reputation for being extremely dangerous opponents other players will single them out for early termination, just out of a sense of self-preservation. This shold in turn persuade players to think twice about selecting it as a racial trait.

Geoschmo

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Properly handled I bet this combo can win at a higher percentage of the time that any other combo. Aggree or disaggree?"

Lot of racial points there, especially since the two goals don't overlap. Where are your points going?

Phoenix-D

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

"Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500."

I had a fit in my latest Devnull game against the Toltoyan. They were the Last race in my purge, and I didn't realize they were religious. My Talisman-equipped SDs plowed through their outer systems on Strategic Combat against 10-to-1 odds--until I met their new Talisman-equipped SDs. Not a pleasant surprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif They actually destroyed my Last ship before I decided to quit attacking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I only came back because I had better production. Now I'm building sphereworlds in every system, converting all planets to breathable, and creating new planets out of all asteroids. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

You make My point exactly Krsqk. The Talisman with high production is diffcult to beat. But the Race can be smashed before they get the Talisman. The problem comes in that it takes awhile to spread the knowledge that a dangerous enemy is afoot. And I contend that someone with the Talisman and High production will win better than 50% of the time. With PBW Survivor2 coming up it would be an interesting testing ground.

[ August 23, 2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Gozra ]

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

I was never part of the GUTB experience BUT, I personally find light cruisers and destroyers armed with DUC V's, armour III and PDC IV a tough combination to beat

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

If he has more then 5 weapons per ship, or doesn't use that multi targetting component, just build lots of Escorts, sure, they may be gone with one hit, but his ship won't be able to fire all weapons, thus reducing his effectiveness.
And use the null-space projecter, if you can take out the talisman, he won't be able to hit you as easily.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

Gorza, you're right it is a tough combo to beat but there are ways.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mine everything: force him to put sweepers on his ships. 30kt each means fewer guns.
  </font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seekers: use lots of them and force him to be PDC heavy. 20kt each
  </font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cloaking: use cloaked ships to get behind his lines and hit his planets. When he catches on he'll put sensors on his ships. 40kt </font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By doing all that you're forcing him to react to you and burn up tonnage on his ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Although now that his ships have fewer guns you still have to be able to survive getting close to him so you can hit.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Emissive and Crystalline: a couple of plates of emissive and tons of crystalline, the crystalline will get hit first but the emissive ability should take effect first (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this!). His shots just build up your shields.
  </font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Emissive and Organic: pretty much the same thing but the organic will Last longer because it has less damage to regenerate. </font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are just a few ideas I'm sure there's a million more out there. Part of the beauty of this game is that there is no perfect strategy.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

The armor with the lowest damage resistance is most likely to be hit first. So, Emissive Armor will most likely be hit before Crystalline or Organic Armor.

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would be very suprised if any of the tourney rounds Last long enough for anyone to develop and employ the tailsman. They are all low tech, single planet starts. And the quad will be quite crowded.

Geo

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

To expand on the "lots of targets" idea, go ahead and use fighters - but launch them in Groups of 1. That's right, give him hundreds of targets to shoot at with his Talisman-armed PDC... a few (hopefully more than a few) are bound to get a shot in. I might also recommend engine destroyers, although their usefulness is now limited somewhat because they no longer skip shields. But if the enemy's engines are gone (and he doesn't have Quantum Reactors yet), he can't move and (without supply storage) can't fire his weapons...

And, as someone else mentioned, start destroying his stars. I prefer turning them into singularities, just to add insult to injury. Kinda fun to watch the enemy deal with multiple black hole systems in a row... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

two words

GUTB ESCORTS

GUYS YOU JUST DON"T GET IT

Re: The unbeatable combination is it out there?
 

I guess that the Talisman is beatable you just have to think outside the box.