The Power of Pangaea - Centaur Warriors

[Keir Maxwell]

A while back Jasper commented that having tested Pangaea he came back with the view that the order Version was clearly better than the luck Version and I couldn't understand this as it means no Maenads. Having tested Pangaea I think I know why Japser came to this view - Centaurs Warrriors.

The basic Centaur Warrior is an awesome unit. 40gps, 11res, for 20hps, 13str, 16def, 11prot, MR13, 2 attacks, javelins, stealthy, berserk3, move 3/29, and (I think) the ability to recover from afflictions. Tough and fast to build due to low resource cost.

By the time I attacked Ctis (t.16) I had a force of 45 Centaur Warriors 15 Centaur archers, 4 Horned Serpents and a few javelin satyr to attract enemy fire (very worthwhile) in my main army. I made the generally fatal mistake of having my Dryad sneak with 20 CW and 7CA but still thrashed a large Ctis army with the remaining units lacking any morale boosting effects.

I'm using the Druid as a rainbow mage so the race wasn't exactly aimed at speed but it still hums along. Think I will have to find a better pretender but I'm not sure what. Lotsa points available as sloth3 is easy to manage. Something fast moving that can cast combat enhancing spells for CW's seems the way to go - maybe the Medusa.

The reason this pushes Pangaea towards order is that what with spending all the gold on Centaurs you don't have any over for Pan so you may as well take order and get more centaurs. I did fine with turmoil in my first test its just that Centaurs go with order and Centaurs rock. Satyr Hopilites on the other hand work well with turmoil (cheap on gps leaving gold over for Pan) but they are not very good so even playing turmoil I used Centaurs.

So I have a new favourite Dom2 unit - Centaur Warriors. Previously I couldn't understand why you would play order with Pangaea now I'll play whatever it takes to get me more Centaurs.

I still haven't decided for sure on the Sacred White Centaurs. While they look good I prefer the easy to use and much cheaper Centaur Warrior. The White Centaur costs 30 more gold and requires you to spend lots of points on bless effects for it to be meaningfully better than the CW. Still I'm sure you could do major damage with them so I'm not ruling them out.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

The satyr hoplites, centaurs, and minotaurs are all good troops. And yes, all draw Pangaea towards a military-based/order game rather than a turmoil based magic-maenad game.


The 350 gold cost of Pan's is hard to justify even with the improved magics (over Dom1) and potential maenad production.

IMHO.

[Gandalf Parker]

Maybe Pangaea maenad is not a winning nation but its a definate force for change. Im in short-fast game where I pinched between Rlyeh and Ermor right off the bat. I figured Id be dead by turn 10. Rlyeh responded to my offer for a NonAgg Pact for awhile (turned me down but at least it was an answer). When I asked Ermor I got no response.

Fine, Im going out and I know who to throw myself against. I put everything into sneaks and sent everyone forth. Even my pretender who was Lord of the Wild.

The tactics were to strike a province, crank taxes to 200%, purchase scouts and some defense, everyone move on. Ive Lasted into late game this way.

Whats really fun is that pan and Lord of the Hunt only need to walk around. They toss maenads as they go. The maenads attack the province and my pretender and pans are never even seen. Eventually Ermor had to start keeping armies in his back provinces and raise his defences in all of them.

It was a fun new discovery very different than my usual use of them as assassins. Still not worth the cost for it to be a main tactic but definetly on the list titled "time for change of tactics"

Gandalf Parker

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
A while back Jasper commented that having tested Pangaea he came back with the view that the order Version was clearly better than the luck Version and I couldn't understand this as it means no Maenads. Having tested Pangaea I think I know why Japser came to this view - Centaurs Warrriors.

That's part of it. Other factors are the expense of Pan, and especially the greatly reduced income. Playing Turmoil 3 Pangaea, I find I don't really have enough gold to take much advantage of Maeneds -- nor much else. Order 3 lets you take advantage of the 120 free points from Misfortune and afford Pan.

[Centaur Warriors]
All Pangaeas troops recover from afflictions. It's pretty easy to get a sizeable contingent of 2 or even 3 star troops, although the Satyr Hoplites are now significantly less survivable with 12 protection.

And yes, the CWs kick ***.

I'm using the Druid as a rainbow mage so the race wasn't exactly aimed at speed but it still hums along. Think I will have to find a better pretender but I'm not sure what. Lotsa points available as sloth3 is easy to manage. Something fast moving that can cast combat enhancing spells for CW's seems the way to go - maybe the Medusa.

I generally don't like to take Sloth as Pangaea, as it's nice to have resources for Hoplites and Minotaurs. This may just be a habit left over from the CW-less Dom1... Perhaps Growth would be better.

Medusa can give a relatively fast start, as with a bit of care she can reliably take provinces by herself w/ independents at 5 or 6.

The reason this pushes Pangaea towards order is that what with spending all the gold on Centaurs you don't have any over for Pan so you may as well take order and get more centaurs. I did fine with turmoil in my first test its just that Centaurs go with order and Centaurs rock. Satyr Hopilites on the other hand work well with turmoil (cheap on gps leaving gold over for Pan) but they are not very good so even playing turmoil I used Centaurs.

I find I'm always short of gold with Pangaea on Turmoil. Hoplites IMHO are better than you suggest, although significantly less effective than in Dom 1.

So I have a new favourite Dom2 unit - Centaur Warriors. Previously I couldn't understand why you would play order with Pangaea now I'll play whatever it takes to get me more Centaurs.

Order/Misfortune gets you 50% more income, which will give you more of _anything_. IMHO Turmoil is crippling -- even for Pangaea, which benefits from it more than anyone else except Ermor.

I still haven't decided for sure on the Sacred White Centaurs. While they look good I prefer the easy to use and much cheaper Centaur Warrior. The White Centaur costs 30 more gold and requires you to spend lots of points on bless effects for it to be meaningfully better than the CW. Still I'm sure you could do major damage with them so I'm not ruling them out.

I like the White Centaurs. It's a bit of a longer term investment, but I generally expect my centaurs to Last long enough to see it. I've been using them with Earth 9, as the extra protection combined with their Berserk makes them quite surviveable. Water 9 might be better, although I'm not really a big dragon fan.

[ December 24, 2003, 12:40: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by apoger:
The satyr hoplites, centaurs, and minotaurs are all good troops. And yes, all draw Pangaea towards a military-based/order game rather than a turmoil based magic-maenad game.


The 350 gold cost of Pan's is hard to justify even with the improved magics (over Dom1) and potential maenad production.

IMHO.

I still think this is because Misfortune is free points if you have Order (very little risk), and Turmoil/Luck doesn't work like it should.

But there's no question that Panii are still very very expensive for their magical skills. Given that Pangaea was widely considered weak in Dom I, I don't see why Panii couldn't have gotten the magic improvement at the same cost, or split into a Pan (200 or so for the Dom I magic skills, maybe 1-2 less maenads per turn) and a Pan Elder (Dom II stats and cost, maybe capitol only).

[Jasper]

If you're taking full advantage of the Maeneds the Pan aren't such a bad deal, especially as they're fairly robust and stealthy. Of course, they're not really a good deal either...

The problem is that taking full advantage means you lose about 1/3 of your income essentially in return for more random events, of about neutral net value.