Generals and outrunning their own bodyguards

[Pnakotus]

Is there a way to restrict a fast general to stay with a unit? I enjoy heroes slicing up the enemy at the front line, but if they're mounted, or even worse FLYING they'll almost always outrun their guards unless you've got equal speed units. In the early game it'd be nice to have an uber hero actually stay with the heavy infantry or whatever: I haven't been able to concoct a system of orders that achieve this.

And yes, I ask because in my last game my best hero got the 'action points' hall of fame thing, and now outruns the cavalry that used to guard him.

[quantum_mechani]

Pnakotus said:
Is there a way to restrict a fast general to stay with a unit? I enjoy heroes slicing up the enemy at the front line, but if they're mounted, or even worse FLYING they'll almost always outrun their guards unless you've got equal speed units. In the early game it'd be nice to have an uber hero actually stay with the heavy infantry or whatever: I haven't been able to concoct a system of orders that achieve this.

And yes, I ask because in my last game my best hero got the 'action points' hall of fame thing, and now outruns the cavalry that used to guard him.

In general, fighters worth using don't need a bodyguard anyway. If you really want to use them that way though, getting a faster (or flying) body guard should not be that hard.

[Tuidjy]

I try to place and script my commanders so that they hit the enemy a turn after
the bulk of the infantry. It is easy against indies, which always start and
act the same. By the time I start fighting the armies of a player, my
commanders do not need bodyguards. Chaff, maybe, bodygards, no.

[Pnakotus]

You're kidding? Even the standard generals can be effective in combat with guards; and even pretenders will get sliced by themselves. Guards are essential until you've got piles of magic items.

And I'm learning that most people here play the huge maps PBEM, so their experience is almost the opposite of mine (smaller maps in one sitting, TCP).

[FarAway Pretender]

Yeah, I find myself erring on the side of scripting cautiously, so a General doesn't end up in the melee until a turn or two after the footsoldiers arrive. Just position him directly behind a big block of infantry that's slower than he is, and then make him "Hold" two turns longer than they do (since heroes get up to 5 scripted orders and the "Hold & then Attack" option only delays 2 turns, this is easy). He misses out on some of the early killing, but he also (more importantly) doesn't die himself, which is a lot more important if you're trying to secure some Heroic bonuses and/or pad his stats with a little experience.

I don't play much MP, but my impression is that they just hold off, assembling various collections of magic items, until a hero is near-invincible before risking anybody in a battle. Once you get into the MP mid-game, I think there are enough tactics/killer combos figured out that it gets a bit more formulaic.

[Jack Simth]

One method of avoiding the issue would be to not script the troops as bodygaurds - instead, have them attack, and start the hero further back.

[quantum_mechani]

Pnakotus said:
You're kidding? Even the standard generals can be effective in combat with guards; and even pretenders will get sliced by themselves. Guards are essential until you've got piles of magic items.

You would have a very hard time carving up the average MP pretender with normal troops...

Casting something like quickness, iron skin, mirror image, breath of winter, mistform on a reason able combat chassis is the usual early fighter. Magic items is is the main method of turning non-pretenders in super combatants, once you get to construction 4 there are enough items to make a good normal army killer.

[Endoperez]

You would have a very hard time carving up the average MP pretender with normal troops...

Casting something like quickness, iron skin, mirror image, breath of winter, mistform on a reason able combat chassis is the usual early fighter. Magic items is is the main method of turning non-pretenders in super combatants, once you get to construction 4 there are enough items to make a good normal army killer.

The discussion was about commanders, and having some bodyguards with them when they reach the enemy. It is not easy task, but sometimes it's the only way you can try, and it surely works better than doing nothing.

Shouldn't any magic weapon be enough to break both mistform and mirror image when it hits? With e.g. Fire Sword (dam 12, att 4) and reasonable combat commander (att 12+) it just might work. And after Constr. 2, Lightning Whip (10 dam, no str, armor neg.) with heroic attack or Ring of the Warrior/Burning Pearl will help getting through the armor, and with good str (Jotun/heroic/bear claw talisman + girdle of might + boots of giant strength if you are reallydesperate) with Duskdagger (dam 3, armor neg.) can get through immense armor. Depending on enemy, Serpen Kryss (against lowish hp, especially when wielded by multiple units) or Smasher might also work.

[NTJedi]

Pnakotus said:
Is there a way to restrict a fast general to stay with a unit? I enjoy heroes slicing up the enemy at the front line, but if they're mounted, or even worse FLYING they'll almost always outrun their guards unless you've got equal speed units. In the early game it'd be nice to have an uber hero actually stay with the heavy infantry or whatever: I haven't been able to concoct a system of orders that achieve this.

And yes, I ask because in my last game my best hero got the 'action points' hall of fame thing, and now outruns the cavalry that used to guard him.

If the hero is good enough he doesn't command any men because when the men die the commander retreats... even province defense which retreats can cause him to run away. For strong commanders that I place with guards usually I give him a good selection for example:
2 flyers, 1 mounted type, 2 with AP around 12, and 3 very slow guards. Also if I really want the commander to stick around in battle I'll place a few living statues way in the back with a hold and attack command.

[Pnakotus]

My comments all refer to early game. As others have mentioned, in mid or late game its easy to buff the *** out of leaders: at the start it isn't. Without magic, most pretenders are just prot10 hp100 losers who go down under 40-50 hvy inf. I remember the first time I used one, assuming it was like in all other fanatasy games... and my naivetiy was somewhat shattered