Future of the EU

[Thermodyne]

Future of the EU

Now that France has rejected the EU constitution, what will the future hold? The Dutch have also rejected it and reports from Luxemburg seem to indicate that the elected government will have to be reformed if the projection holds up and they too reject it. My friends in the UK are telling me that it will never come to a vote before they assume the top seat this fall. As it stands now, it wouldn’t pass and they are telling me that in a case like this, it would be less than proper to have the vote at this time.


Anyone from across the pond able to give us some depth on this. Are the French just trying to improve their position, or is French Nationalism still having visions of empire. The Dutch have explained their position somewhat, and the reasons seem to be valid. But the reporting here seems to be avoiding the hard questions with the French. And here, it would appear that the government will soon move against some of the EU trade actions. It would seem that we were waiting for the constitution to be ratified and perhaps for the change of leadership after rotation. But the list of large corporations (read campaign contributors) with complaints seems to be forcing some sort of action sooner than later.

[Alneyan]

My fingers have gone on strike, and refuse to write anything about this topic. Kidding aside, I have made a somewhat developed answer on another board, merely dealing with objections to the treaty itself, and to the way it was sold to those silly... to the most appreciated voters. Other interesting opinions about the Whole Thingy can be found in the same thread, though I was the only Frenchman on duty. Link is here .

A succinct summary: the treaty was about as clear as muddy water, with various articles reducing other provisions, among other things. A clear picture is very difficult to get, even for scholars of legalese and pol sci. Check your knowledge of the proposed treaty by answering the following questions: what bodies hold power in the proposed treaty? Who do we elect directly? Who is responsible before whom? What are the differences compared to the current system? How are decisions taken? (Special cases where unaminity is required must be mentioned as well, as per articles IV 440 and 441... or was it 441 and 442? and linked articles) I did not like the picture I got, but I cannot be sure I read (and understood) everything related to the political institutions. Still, it seems *very* odd to vote on something the average voter is unlikely to fully understand, given the awful presentation of the Whole Thingy.

The campaign was the yes was about as convincing as... Well, let's just say the no vote has climbed in the polls thorought the "official" campaign (starting in early May or so). The arguments were vague to say the least, there was not much in the ways of emotion, and some examples were simply wrong. Add to that the marginalisation of the naysayers, and the felt omnipresence of the yes campaigners in the media, and you have the recipe for a failure.

Two quotes from the father of the treaty himself, the former French President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing (technically not supposed to campaign under French law); the effect of the quotes is kept, but I cannot recall their exact wording (it can be found if needed). "I would be the first to recognise the Constitution is a much better remedy for insomnia than most of the medecine they sell in drugstores." "The treaty could be cut by one third without removing anything important from it." Got to wonder why nothing was done to help matters eh? And a lovely quote from a right-wing meeting: "Only the decrepit old timers would say no". How persuasive.

[Atrocities]

Seriously, the EU is really just a bloated beurocracy that desprately needs to be reorganized into the first European World Empire.

[Thermodyne]

JHC, how the hell can you know that for which you would be voting? It must have taken 40 thousand lawyers to write that thing. No way am I going to attempt to digest it. I do hope you guys can work it out. But please don’t crap all over my euros in getting it done. I would really hate to have to go to China to hedge my holdings. Not sure how I would place that order anyway. I guess I would just issue an order for “x” tones of 100 Yuan notes (sick).

Not to mention the lenghts they have gone to for counting money with their fingers.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Side note: The Leopard tank is a German tank, and is more widely used IIRC than the Abrams - but that's probably 'cause the US military command is too stinkin' afraid to let anyone else, even their allies, even get close enough to the Abrams tank that they could see where to climb into it.

[El_Phil]

Honestly, you try for a joke and you end up with more than is healthy to know about US tank engines. Still interesting stuff.

Wouldn't most of the stuff about the M1 apply to the Challenger. Except the Challenger would have better armour, better gun, but slower to target.

Aren't they're Abrams in Australian service and a few other places? I think that was from Steel Panthers so could be utter rubbish.

Not being an expert on such matters can I confirm something, I have heard the LeClerc tank is the fastest main battle tank in the world. Light armour, large engine, etc. This seems too much like a dodgy fact cooked up to produce various bad jokes about French tanks being very fast as reversing so they aren't shot at before surrendering.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The Dutchm valid reasons? Oh, trust me, I'm a Dutchman.

THE MAJOR REASONS FOR OUR REJECTING THE TREATY IS SIMPLY BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WERE VERY VERY POORLY INFORMED.

I'm not eligible to vote yet but if I was eligible to vote, I'd have voted YES.

[El_Phil]

It does really depend on what the grand vision of the EU is? A united states of Europe, a trading block where you don't need passports or something in between.

We're long past option 2, you'd never get the UK to go for option 1 so it's probably option 3. Sadly half the guys who wrote the constitution wanted integration and the other half didn't. So you get grand statements of how the EU will rule the continent ignoring any form of democracy, balanced out by sub sections and articles cutting those statements back.

Result - A confused mess which would probably be used by the Eurocrats to extend their powers far futher than anybody intended. That was the previous EU treatys have meant anyway.

[Kamog]

Sorry, when I read the title of this thread I thought that it was going to be about the Star Wars Expanded Universe (EU).

[Fyron]

Kind of like how the federal government in the US constantly encroaches upon the powers of the state governments, stealing more and more central power and authority with every passing year... I forsee the exact same thing happening with the EU if it is ever made to be more than a glorified Trade and Research Alliance.