The possibility of partnership.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, just an idea that came to me here, but I wanted to get the forum's opinions as well as bring it to the attention of the designers.

Another game I own, and of which some of you may have heard, is Galactic Civilizations 2, "Dread-Lords" by Stardock. The reasons I bring it up are that it too was created by a small number of designers, and it is known for having one of the best AIs for turn-based on the market. It's a pretty decent game overall, and the designers are looking for a fantasy turn based strategy to work on. I'm wondering, not only if the designers would be interested in working with Stardock, but if the community as a whole think they'd be a good company for Illwinter to work with to possibly bring the Dom series to a larger market, and to help expand the game and improve it in good areas. They seem to be good at what they do, and the kind of company which could handle Dom with care, but ofcourse I'd encourage anyone with an opinion to do research and homework on the subject.

My opinion:
In order to take the Dom series to the next level any time soon, it seems pretty clear that it's going to take more than two designers, unless we fit slave collars on Johan and Kristoffer and make them work 24/7 on Dom. While I personally am all for that, evil greedy beast that I am, I'm pretty sure it's illegal, and maybe even immoral, whatever that means. At the same time, big bloated companies like Atari etc. clearly aren't the way to go. Stardock already has created a good, popular small game-Galactic Civilizations-and then successfully expanded it into a broad market without destroying what made the game good in the first place. They show innovation, they seem to have a very good record of working with their fan-community, and they have technology and know-how that would directly and significantly improve those areas where Dom 3 really doesn't shine-specifically AI. I believe they actually care about making good games and like playing games, and they seem to have a good grasp of what a good game is.

If Kristoffer and Johan are satisfied with Illwinter going it alone, ofcourse that's perfectly fine with me and I respect that, not that I have a choice in the matter, but it's possible that they are looking for, or have thought about looking for, a company to partner with on the Dom series, in which case I'd like to do my part to insure that they make a good choice about that partner, and in the process hopefully make me a better game.

Naturally, I have no connection with Stardock, Illwinter, or anyone willing to pay me one red cent about my opinion on pretty much any subject, I'm sad to say, but atleast it keeps my interests earnest and my hands clean.

[PvK]

HoneyBadger said:
... if the community as a whole think they'd be a good company for Illwinter to work with to possibly bring the Dom series to a larger market, and to help expand the game and improve it in good areas. ...

I've not had much interest in GalCiv due to the nearly non-existant combat system. So I've not enough experience to know much about their developers' strengths. However having programmed game AI myself, it seems to me that while the GalCiv AI apparently has made a very good impression, the game it's playing isn't nearly as complex or detailed as Dominions and its database. It's far easier to make a convincing AI for a game with fewer detailed decisions and game systems to master.

Also, I think IW benefits greatly from being developed with money-making being a tertiary consideration at most, and with a mass-market audience having near-zero influence on development decisions. So, I'm hoping IW stay centered on interesting "hard-core" game design, and remain ambivalent to the "larger market" and investors who would want them to change their priorities.

PvK

[tromper]

Welp, not that it matters much, but I completely disagree with Pvk, and concur with HoneyBadger.

As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games. I'm not casual by any means, but the hardcore junkets many of you fly should give some ground for us middling folks that want to kick it with some excellent strategic AND MYTHOLOGICAL/HISTORICAL noise now and then.

Stardock's made money. Stardock doesn't rape. Brad's a nice guy. Speak to them and square away the balance and AI for those of us that don't play a bazillion hours per day.

[B0rsuk]

I understand benefits of having only ~2 people on team. You can make the game exactly the way you want. This is a huge pro for someone interested in creating games, believe me.

In case you wanted to benefit from their electronic distribution system, Caravelgames is even smaller than Stardock (probably) but sells their game through download.
http://caravelgames.com
DROD rocks, by the way.

[upstreamedge]

I also like how small IW is because it means that they take input from their (rabid) fanbase very seriously.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, small companies aren't really the issue, B0rsuk, the issue is Illwinter possibly partnering with another game company that would benefit my own personal gaming experience. My point and my goal is to locate a game company that, as tromper states very concisely: "makes money and doesn't rape" the game. Stardock could be a very good choice. Stardock seems to be a company which is strong in the areas Dom 3 is weak. I like that they focus on the single-player experience, and I like that they have very good AI implementation. I'm glad that Dom3 has excellent multi-player, I'm glad that aspect of the game is there if I choose to use it, but in the meantime, I enjoy playing single-player. It would be nice if less limited programming resources and man-hours could be used to smooth out some of the rougher spots in the game.

[Agrajag]

tromper said:
As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but Galciv gives all races the exact same units to play with, so is balanced by means of complete symmetry.

AI is also probably not a consideration, since Galciv was designed around the idea of the customizable (by Brad) AI. Dominions however isn't, and as far as I can guess, does not have specific hooks and handles to alter the AI, and is also immensly more complex.

Also, there's the fact the Stardock and Illwinter are located in different continents.

[PvK]

tromper said:
Welp, not that it matters much, but I completely disagree with Pvk, and concur with HoneyBadger.

As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games. I'm not casual by any means, but the hardcore junkets many of you fly should give some ground for us middling folks that want to kick it with some excellent strategic AND MYTHOLOGICAL/HISTORICAL noise now and then.

Stardock's made money. Stardock doesn't rape. Brad's a nice guy. Speak to them and square away the balance and AI for those of us that don't play a bazillion hours per day.

I think you may have misunderstood. I don't see any reason to think that the people who made GalCiv (who chose a hugely simplistic and abstact combat system with pretty generic unit abilities) would have any special ability to improve the AI for Dominions (which has an extremely complex and detailed combat system and an extremely detailed unit database). Seems to me GalCiv has success with AI because they designed a less complex game with very different kinds of things the AI needed to do.

Now, it does seem that IW perhaps hasn't focussed its efforts on improving and tweaking the AI. If IW felt like adding resources rather than do that kind of work, I think a good match would be someone they could work with who is an AI programmer and a fan of Dominions who would be motivated to work on it on the same terms IW is.

But even though I see many ways that an Dom 3 fan AI programmer like myself could probably tweak the AI that would be really nice, on balance I think the AI in Dominions is remarkably good, considering all it has to deal with. And as a Dom player for years who has enjoyed playing single-player as much or more than playing multi-player, AI issues have rarely interfered with my enjoyment of the game in SP mode.

I'm also puzzled by the comment about Vanheim, since I have not seen the AI be so super-powerful as Vanheim. In fact, limitations on the ways the AI thinks prevent it from focusing on taking advantage of Vanheim's strengths. For example, I've played many single-player Dom 3 games and I've only seen Vanheim get particularly strong in one of them (but in that game, Oceania and I (as EA Ulm) were both stronger). And I've seen AI Pangaea dominate the map while AI Vanheim was locked up in a stalemate war.

As for reading hundreds of posts about how X, Y, and Z are atrociously imbalanced and horrendous... well, these Shrapnel Dominions forums have always (since Dom 2) been full of ridiculously exaggerating critics who rant and rave between their avid play sessions.

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually Brad Wardell has long been considered to be one of the top programmers for AI in games. Or at least one of the most mentioned for well over a decade. He was doing multi-threaded AI on the OS/2 operating system a long tieme ago and any mention of games AI in an ai newsgroup or magazine tended to mention him. WinXP was supposed to be the first Windows that finally caught up to being able to handle his AI programming altho Im not all that impressed with the windows version of his game. But his AI is excellent, and his method for incorporating it into games is as expandable as Dominions Modding.

Getting him to work on the AI for this game would be great (just the AI, and maybe the diplomacy options). But I dont think its likely to happen anymore than Brad would be likely to ask Illwinter to help him improve the balance and challenge in his game.

As for Vanheim, like I said I have never seen a problem. But then that might be because I am likely to play on large maps, with sneak nations. And on MP games with victory points.

Gandalf Parker

[PvK]

And thus the Illwinter Cult was formed...