Machine Gun Indirect fires?

[montieth]

Something else just popped up. I don't suppose MMG units (vickers really) can effect indirect fire missions can they?

[runequester]

They can't. I'm not sure if the British army maintained that practice past WW1.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Probably some unit classed as arty had a machinegun, but Z firing is nearly the same thing

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by runequester

They can't. I'm not sure if the British army maintained that practice past WW1.

Only of any real use on a static front. Tens of thousands of rounds were needed and it was really only useful for a harassing or area denial mission on one fixed point of the map, fired for several hours.

Vickers in infantry bn support coys probably did not, but those in MG battalions (used as divisional support groups with Vickers, 4.2 inch mortars, and other stuff) probably still trained in the capacity.

The Z key provides enough of a simulation for such MMG fires.

Cheers
Andy

[montieth]

Originally Posted by runequester

They can't. I'm not sure if the British army maintained that practice past WW1.

It is my understanding that they did. Were it not the case, they'd not cart the extra materials around for effecting said fire missions. Things like aiming posts, plotting boards, lamps for illuminating the posts, and various other components.

Take a look at www.Vickersmachinegun.org and look at the sections on transport. You'll find kit for the indirect fire mission stowed on both the 15cwt trucks AND the Bren Carriers.

Moreover, from the British Training Pamphlet:

Notes on the Organization and the Tactical Handling of MEdium Machine Guns
Military Training Pamphlet No31
1940

4. Characteristics
2. Range With accurate range taking and correct application of the fire control rules, medium MGs can fire with effect up to 4,500 yards. Medium MGs ranges are defined as follows:
i. Close, up to 800 yards - the range up to which, on level ground, the trajectory is sufficiently flat to hit a standing man at all points between gun and target.
ii. Intermediate, up to 1,400 yards
iii. Long, over 1,400 yards. At these ranges two sections will generally be necessary to produce effective fire
.
.
.9. Indirect Fire. Medium MGs are capable of engaging a target which is not visible from the gun position, but is visible from an OP. Flexibility is limited, but concealment is more easily obtained, and the chance of guns being neutralized by enemy artillery is minimized.
In cases where the target is not visible from an OP or where it has not been possible to range on it in daylight, the necessary data can be obtained from a 1/25,000 map. The accuracy of map shooting depends chiefly on the accurate pin pointing of the gun position and target on the map. Artillery units who possess methods of surveying can often be of assistance in this.

The more or less work out like mortars in this regard and they are aimed just like a mortar section is.

Note 1 section is 2 guns. Each section had 3 carriers, 2 MMG carriers and one carrier for the section commander. The Platoon had 2 carriers (one with a PIAT).

[cbo]

Originally Posted by montieth

It is my understanding that they did. Were it not the case, they'd not cart the extra materials around for effecting said fire missions. Things like aiming posts, plotting boards, lamps for illuminating the posts, and various other components.

It is my impression, that such things were in fact dragged along long after they ceased to be usefull because they were part of the TO&E. A bit like the Danish Army sending lawn mowers to the forces in Iraq because they were part of standard kit for camp ;-)

That said, you are right, indirect MG fire was used in WWII. There is a description of it being used in Normandy in 1944 in a history of the 43rd Division (IIRC). It was used to soften up German defenses before an attack and apparently was absolutely devastating, killing off most the defenders.

cbo

[montieth]

Originally Posted by cbo

It is my impression, that such things were in fact dragged along long after they ceased to be usefull because they were part of the TO&E. A bit like the Danish Army sending lawn mowers to the forces in Iraq because they were part of standard kit for camp ;-)

That may be the danes, but then they have peculiar ideas on how to do a lot of things (speed control in cities for example. ). But remember, the UK had just lost a significant portion of its military ground forces in the BEF in Europe. They weren't going to cart around things they didn't really need or more importantly, rebuild up organization to maintain use of deflection sites for MMG units when a simple leaf and tangent sight would work fine for direct fires.

That said, you are right, indirect MG fire was used in WWII. There is a description of it being used in Normandy in 1944 in a history of the 43rd Division (IIRC). It was used to soften up German defenses before an attack and apparently was absolutely devastating, killing off most the defenders.

MMGs with good ammo, water and a good targeting prep can be nasty. Imagine a whole area of a field that's looks like it's being rained on, but instead of water, it's boattailed jacketed lead bullets with wood in the tips raining down. You don't know when it's going to stop and unless you're under something of substantial hard cover, you might get shot. Instead of fragments flying sideways, all the rounds are coming down ballistically.

Of course the really big MMG shoots were in WWI. The Somme saw one where 10 guns of a company each fired around 10,000 rounds, for a total of just short of 1 Million rounds over 10 hours. That was to soften up german assembly areas to forestall a counter attack.

[blitzkreig]

Hello all,

Although this would be nice to model in the game the code is limited and z fire models it to a degree (though far less accruatly than I think it should.)

My point here really is that the pratice did surive past WW1. In fact it survived a long way past WW1. Although used on a smaller scale the British Army Infantry Battalion SF platoons (Sustained Fire) equiped with Tripod GPMG and Browning 50 cal are still trained and use the practice of enfilade fire via OP or map firing in combat today.

[chuckfourth]

Originally Posted by montieth

i. Close, up to 800 yards - the range up to which, on level ground, the trajectory is sufficiently flat to hit a standing man at all points between gun and target.

Boy How much would I like to see en-filade machine gun fire modeled in the game.

Best Regards Chuck.

[montieth]

According to the manual, two sections, ie 4 guns. Presumably that's to allow for changing belts and to establish enough rounds in a beaten zone. Sounds a LOT like Mortar fire. Harassing fire vs Neutralization fire as the british would call it. One thing is, that if it's an AFV, having open hatches would be a problem.

And British tank crews thought they had it rough driving through orchards in Normandy....:-D