Getting AAA to fire

[Weasel]

I have been scratching my head for some time now as to why my AAA will not fire at a/c. In my current game vis is 60+ and my AAA 40mm bofors are deployed in open fields. Enemy a/c coming flying in 20 hexes away and my guns just watch.

In a previous game I had SP AA-MG escorting my tanks, the a/c flew over them and they still did not fire.

What does it take? The a/c are well above the trees, LOS is long and vis is huge.

I am stumped and am a bit tired of using my AAA as infantry grinders because they fail to do anything else. I have searched the forums and the manual but could find nothing stating what it takes to get them to fire.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

did you got a "bad-target" message?

[Cross]

Hi Weasel,

I just had a Hurricane shot down by my PBEM opponent (Vesku) yesterday. The plane crashed onto the battlefield. I didn't see a chute

There was quite a few different guns firing at the poor bloke.

I think it helps if the AAA are stationary.

You may need shots left at the end of your turn; so I don't think you can use them to shoot up infantry and then expect them to shoot at aircraft in the same turn.

Perhaps you should ask Vesku what he did right.

cheers,
Cross

[Ironfist]

20 hexes away is a bit too far away. I think AA needs a minimum hit probability to fire.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Ironfist

20 hexes away is a bit too far away. I think AA needs a minimum hit probability to fire.

AAA needs a minimum to-hit chance to fire. The greater the %age, the more likely to fire. SP-AAA that moved are usually highly unlikely to fire in AA mode.

It also has a skill roll to pass to fire - and can fail that.

It also needs shots to fire - if you have been beating up grunts with them then it may not have sufficient reaction shots left, or be targeted on other troops and so decide not fire in AA mode since it is currently locked onto some squaddies.

It also needs LOS to the target. Smoke and dust can cause obscuration.


A bofors has about 40 hexes max range - it will usually fire at about 15-20 hexes or so on fresh incoming air targets. It may well follow a receding target out past 20 hexes, if it has successive shots and so has climbed the ranging ladder.

As with all things - it is very easy to set up a test scenario with some AAA guns on the one side (guarding some trucks as targets say) and some planes on the other targeted into the truck park and see what happens. Then change the parameters such as range to the target trucks, and see what then happens and so on.

Andy

[Weasel]

Ok, the bofors were not moving at all, had never fired from game start, and had been deployed for turns. So since most a/c chance to hit are around 2-5% I am best to assume that my AAA will never fire? I know in one game the only time my a/c got shot at was when they actually flew through a box of guns, but other then that nothing.

As for LOS; if my AAA is in the field, and there is a row of trees at the end of the field and the a/c come in in the hex row behind the trees is the game playing that the a/c are behind and below the trees? I fear this is what is happening, and if so that means his attacking a/c are flying at about 30 feet.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Weasel

Ok, the bofors were not moving at all, had never fired from game start, and had been deployed for turns. So since most a/c chance to hit are around 2-5% I am best to assume that my AAA will never fire? I know in one game the only time my a/c got shot at was when they actually flew through a box of guns, but other then that nothing.

As for LOS; if my AAA is in the field, and there is a row of trees at the end of the field and the a/c come in in the hex row behind the trees is the game playing that the a/c are behind and below the trees? I fear this is what is happening, and if so that means his attacking a/c are flying at about 30 feet.

I usually set my stationary flak up on hills, and dot them about in sections or platoons of 2-3 to form an interlocking (or near enough) matrix over the rear zone. That way, most planes that attack into the rear will fly near enough to a cell of guns (20 hexes or less) to get shot at. Individual guns about 4-6 hexes apart from platoon CO in case arty gets directed at them.

I dont set them up in a "grand battery" very often as the planes would need to be guaranteed to come to that spot of the map. Unless playing MBT of course where the guns will have much better FC and RF values than WW2, AA radar even and so will pop off at air targets way aways - even right across the map at helos. Post-war 57mm Soviet radar directed AAA is rather nice to have, and can cause a helo using enemy fits .

I try to set them up in a "U" shaped box around my gun/moratar lines since the AI tends to get interested in attacking those.

SP-AA and any towed guns that I move forwards I deploy in a similar manner in the forward zone.

Inf-AAMG are useful to plod along behind the infantry coy HQs for local protection (and occasional ground target biffing up).

Trees, hills and built up zones will screen low flying planes from flak sitting on the flat. Putting them up on a little pimple with a good all round FOV usually cures that.

Cheers
Andy

[Weasel]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

I usually set my stationary flak up on hills, and dot them about in sections or platoons of 2-3 to form an interlocking (or near enough) matrix over the rear zone. That way, most planes that attack into the rear will fly near enough to a cell of guns (20 hexes or less) to get shot at. Individual guns about 4-6 hexes apart from platoon CO in case arty gets directed at them.

I dont set them up in a "grand battery" very often as the planes would need to be guaranteed to come to that spot of the map. Unless playing MBT of course where the guns will have much better FC and RF values than WW2, AA radar even and so will pop off at air targets way aways - even right across the map at helos. Post-war 57mm Soviet radar directed AAA is rather nice to have, and can cause a helo using enemy fits .

I try to set them up in a "U" shaped box around my gun/moratar lines since the AI tends to get interested in attacking those.

SP-AA and any towed guns that I move forwards I deploy in a similar manner in the forward zone.

Inf-AAMG are useful to plod along behind the infantry coy HQs for local protection (and occasional ground target biffing up).

Trees, hills and built up zones will screen low flying planes from flak sitting on the flat. Putting them up on a little pimple with a good all round FOV usually cures that.

Cheers
Andy

This is what I posted at THE BLITZ:

"Ok, after many emails to me, and frustration on my part too, I asked the designing powers at Shrapnel how exactly the AAA routine works in winspww2. The reply from Mobhack was educating, and instead of replying to each person whom asked individually I am posting here.

First off: IGNORE the max range on AAA for engaging a/c, it means basically nothing. AAA will normally only engage out to about a range of 20 hexes max; now you may get the odd long shot, but all in all the a/c must fly closer then 20 hexes to the AAA unit to be engaged and have a chance of being hit. Consider the 20 hexes the maximum range. What does this mean? AAA must be deployed close to the units you want to protect. The days of setting your guns on a hill top and hoping they might engage a/c attacking your artillery 22 hexes away is over. My suggestion and as mentioned by Mobhack: set your guns into a U shape near the vital target with about 4-6 hexes between tubes.

Second: SPAA - this AAA is basically only good for very close in a/c attacks, within 8-10 hexes of the target maximum. In my experience it only engages a/c within 5 hexes. So ensure one unit is always stationary near the target (best not to have moved the turn before also) while the other is moving up to the next position; think over watch.

Thanks to Mobhack (Andy) for providing detail on the AAA routines."

[Imp]

Second: SPAA - this AAA is basically only good for very close in a/c attacks, within 8-10 hexes of the target maximum. In my experience it only engages a/c within 5 hexes. So ensure one unit is always stationary near the target (best not to have moved the turn before also) while the other is moving up to the next position; think over watch

From experience I think this is wrong perhaps another explanation
1) AA needs a LOS to fire & like other guns may well not fire if its hit chance is to low saving shots for a better target.
2) If the gun already has a better target i.e. fired at ground unit & has a "lock" it is even less likely to fire.
3) If it moves to hit chance goes down
4) Mobile & static guns both use same rules so if had identical stats both would react to a given situation the same.

So what should you look for in AA gun for it to engage.
To engage initaly experience helps plus a good range finder, range & gun accuracy.
To continue engaging good fire control & ROF help as additional shots at same target have a chance to climb to a higher to hit chance.

Range has an effect I think as the shorter the range the quicker the accuracy & damage fall off.
An AA gun would need a reasonably good RF (think post WW2) to fire at max range.

As far as I know it therefore follows exatly the same rules as any ground gun.
A WW2 tank with a range of 100 will never engage another unit at that range.
A modern era tank with improved FC RF will if its chance to hit is now high enough.
Probably other factors involved like still might not take because can't kill but I do not want to know the exact mechanics involved I prefer to just play & observe.

The one diffrence Betwwen AA & normal ground guns is they will not tend to op fire at troops as it is not their primary role.

Hope this helps & like I say it is just my observation of how the game works, might be wrong but seems to work okay in practice

[RERomine]

Here are some cold, hard numbers related to the US 40mm AA gun in some tests I ran in the game.

To begin with, the terrain was completely clear ground. Testing took place on a 100x100 map with visibility set to 80. The variables controlled were the experience of the AA unit and the target. Test conditions had four US 40mm AA guns set up to to engage the target coming in on a straight east-west approach. There were four test scenarios with 20 passes in each condition:

1. US experience 70, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 10.9
Maximum engagement range: 15
Minimum engagement range: 7

2. US experience 70, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 4.9
Maximum engagement range: 11
Minimum engagement range: 0

3. US experience 120, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 17.7
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 8

4. US experience 120, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 15.0
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 0

One general note is that only engagements of an incoming plane were counted. The objective of AAA is to protect friendly forces from enemy aircraft. If the enemy plane succeeds in dropping it's load, the gun has failed this mission.

Another note is only one pass was made on a given turn. No attempt was made to overwhelm the AA defense.

While the target hex was the same in each test, it was not spotted. As such, the target plane would sometimes deviate it's path three hexes north or south of the expected path to engage one of the AA units instead of the target in the hex. The target was the infantry HQ unit.

Here is some basic information I got out of these tests:

1. At no point did the AA guns engage a target beyond 20 hexes. There were four guns and a total of 80 air strikes, so for 320 possible instances, the range 46 US 40mm AA guns did not engage past 20 hexes.
2. Experience is a factor. This wasn't unexpected. At experience 70, the maximum range of an engagement was 15 and that happened once out of 160 possibilities. When experience was increased to 120, engagements at 20 hexes became more frequent. Experience could be a significant factor in single battle PBEM games where national average is used.
3. Speed/size of target is a factor. Again, this wasn't unexpected. When AA experience was 120, they failed to engage the Fw190 on two passes. At AA experience of 70, they failed to engage the Fw190 on 10 passes. In all cases, the Ju88 was attacked.

If anyone has any questions about this testing, let me know.