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  #1  
Old November 9th, 2009, 12:11 AM

Illuminated One Illuminated One is offline
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Default Henges - pregame discussion

Ok, a second attempt to get a game going that strays from the way dominions normally plays.

This is only for pregame discussion so you are free to remark. I will prepare the mod&map somewhen this or next month if there is enough interest (and real life doesn't require to much of my attention) - so it will require some patience. While there's a lot of changes, the game is still noob friendly if you think you can handle it. The changes will be new to everyone and will all be documented on the first page (except those from CBM). Besides we need someone to overrun.
The game will put a large focus on resource management and trade. CBM 1.6.

Firstly because of the new features players will be allowed to pick their starts, with at least three or four provinces distance between caps. Thematic placement is prefered (if Ulm and Sauro want to settle close to mountains Ulm will get the spot - if they are both going for swamps it's Sauro).



The game will be played on a custom made map with four features.

The map will use "realistic" geology - that is different types of terrain won't be distributed randomly but instead be clustered in coherent forests, mountain ranges and deserts.
Parganos fits and looks good, but if you have another preference that fits these criteria let me know.

Secondly gem income will be distributed less randomly. Mountains will get a guaranteed 1 gem income of either Earth or Air, Forests of Nature, Desert of Fire or Death, Swamps of Water or Death, Coastal and UW provinces of Water (*). If you take a coastal forest you have 1W1N guaranteed.
There will be a low random distribution laid on top of that (**).

Thirdly discount sites and strong indie mages will not appear on the map randomly. Having access to magic your enemy can't account for or doing half your magic at half the cost can be game deciding and should not be left to chance. Small scale nature mages are still in.

And lastly there will be special provinces - Henges, hence the name.
These henges have been built by an ancient and long forgotten civilization upon sites of great magic power for a purpose unknown to most. They are now dormant (yet still generate 4 astral pearls), but can be activated again by powerful magic. There are three ways to enchant (for 50 gems initial investment) them:
1.) Gem generators. I'd say a flat 10 gems a turn for any path but astral.
2.) Recruitment sites. These basically let you recruit mages, albeit not human ones, but creatures connected to a certain element, undead, celestial (astral) or demonic beings.
I'd say for the elements thugable 2x mages with 1 100% random.
For death, astral and blood it's tartarians, angels and demons. However you still have to subjugate (= GOR) those and the gate can not be kept up indefinitely and you will have to recast the spell after n turns.(***)
3.) Discount sites. Although the level of discount will be still kept low (<= 25%) it might still be useful if you are heavily into a path.

Ok, lets discuss the effects this has before going on.
(*) This might (and should) mean you end up with a shortage in a certain gemtype. It's up to you to make up for it through trade or clever usage of your magic and henges.
(**) Blood is nerfed. Perfectly fine by me. I might add a slight dousing bonus to bloodhunters if income turns out to low, though.
(***) As far as possible nations will get fitting SCs - Devas and Mandahas for Indian nations for example.



The second big change will be in research. You will start with 10 researchers (which are an abstract representation of your nations magepower - recruited mages can't research). Depending on how many you use you will pay a certain (high) amount of your income (*). Good vanilla research nations will get a better rp/gold ratio, with slight enhancements/nerves where thematically and because of national power this is applicable. Early research will be higher than in vanilla, late research lower (**).

(*) If you are running out of gold you might have to turn down your research. There's no difference to vanilla in that except you don't have to run through 20 forts recruiting the same mage over and over again.
(**) This will bring out magic earlier, you should have the option to work low level magic into your earlier wars or indy expansion. At the same time as the game progresses you will have less research than in a normal game and research strategy becomes more important. Remember to scout your enemies to find out what they are researching (and therefore what they are not).



Lastly I will optionally give the weaker nations a boost based on the map settings.

Abysia - because of their connection to fire they will get +1 f gem in every wasteland province
Agartha - because of their connection to earth they will get +1 e gem in every mountain province
Arco - they will get a nice research boost because of their inclination towards philosophy
Ermor - gets a cheaper version of Undead henge spells that will however kill a lot of population
Marverni - have unlocked many of the secrets of the henges and can gateway for free from these
Pangea - can summon animals in every forest province they take
Tir na Nog - because of their faery nature they will get +1 n gem in every forrest province
Ulm - gets a mine in each mountain province representing their knowlegde of mining and metallurgy
Yomi - because of their demonic nature they can summon small yomi demons at every henge
Underwater nations - I really don't have an idea. Maybe I'll add burnsabers uw enhancement mod without the changes that make it easier for landnations to get underwater - this should make them quite dangerous in parganos.

Another small quirk is that I might increase the cost/research level for teleport and cloud trapeze.


Last point: diplomacy

Simple: When you can get away with it it's fair.
Remember that there's many diplomatic options that are rarely used in normal games. Like you can ask your neighbour for tribute in gems you lack when you feel strong enough.

Last edited by Illuminated One; November 9th, 2009 at 12:23 AM..
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  #2  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:03 AM
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GrudgeBringer GrudgeBringer is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

Good Start.....I think I would be interested, and even though I usually play a research intensive nation, I like the idea of a set research amount that takes a certain amount of gold to run.

Then you really DO have to get out of the box and plan your nation instead of running thru the same first 10 to 15 moves.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 01:47 AM

kianduatha kianduatha is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

It sounds like a bunch of fun, though I don't quite get how you can make all this happen.

For the water nations...if you really want to give them a boost, make Amulets of the Fish Const-0 and 5 water gems(even less, if you can manage it). R'lyeh an extra astral pearl per province. For the other two...one gets an extra water gem per underwater province, and the other gets to summon sea monsters?
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Old November 9th, 2009, 02:18 AM

rdonj rdonj is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

The yomi bonus isn't really that interesting. They can already recruit their little demons anywhere they want to, and because they take almost no resources it is not very difficult to mass them. Maybe if you could recruit kuro oni, oni generals, or dai oni at a henge it would be an interesting boost.

Anyway I like the idea. Almost enough to play, but I am trying to get out off games at the moment. It will be interesting to see how it turns out though.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 05:33 AM
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Amonchakad Amonchakad is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

Wow...it's a very interesting game concept, but a question comes naturally to mind: have you already devised out how to implement all of this? I know something about modding, and to me it sounds quite hard to do some of the things you propose, at least not without some very crafty(and possibly annoying) modding tricks. Especially giving some nations bonus gem income from specific provinces/sites, and the whole henges thing, look quite impossible to implement.

Anyway, if you actually know how to do this, I'm definitely tempted to join About the UW nations, I think that Burnsaber's UWGIM would be a very welcome boost, and you can always cut out specific features you don't like.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 07:19 AM
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Fantomen Fantomen is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

I like the idea. But I also wonder how you are going to make the bonuses and henge spells work in practice.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 11:54 AM

rdonj rdonj is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

He's going to use python scripts to do it. I frankly have no idea exactly how, but most of it is probably by modifying the map in the middle of the game.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Squirrelloid Squirrelloid is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

Concerns:
-Not sure i agree with a research boost for Arco. Philosophy =/= magical might. And as i imagine you're already going to give them the 'cheap' end of the research spectrum... Does EA Arco even need any boosts at all? - they're already a powerful nation, and you've just freed all their oreiads up for SC duty.
-Undead isn't especially thematic for EA Ermor. And remember they have no D income to start with. Think of these guys as Roman Empire before the fall, death magic becomes a more major focus after their emperors are insane and screwing their inlaws =)
-Ulm's bonus would be perfectly thematic for *any other* era, but not for EA.
-TNN would benefit a lot more from bonus A gems. I've never been short on N with Eriu, and I imagine TNN feels the same way.
-Does EA Abysia actually need the help? Not that +1f is that significant.
-Parraganos is a very poorly balanced map, and very bad for UW nations. Possibly unplayable bad for UW nations.

Questions:
-Do pretenders still perform research normally?
-Do nations 'gatewaying' with more than one category get access to all variations? Ie, a DS nation can summon tarts and angels? If so, how much access to a path does a nation have to have to qualify for a particular type?
-How many RP/researcher? How much gold/researcher used? (a table is fine)
-Are any nations not allowed?
-Do you get the bonus gem site in your capitol? (Ie, if you have a forest capitol, you get a +1N site)

Edit: whoops, wrote agartha and meant abysia.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 03:22 PM

kianduatha kianduatha is offline
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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

I dunno, EA Ulm has the whole Enigma of Steel business going on. It seems perfect for them--they get more resources and gold from mountain provinces.

The point of the Ermor bonus is that they can actually make the choice to bring Death to their empire. It works beautifully.

Actually for Arcosephale I'm far more terrified of a pack of Mage Engineers waltzing around and instasieging castles earlygame. It's hard to imagine what's going to happen balance-wise for this, but I'm not sure Arcosephale needs to be anything better than 'cheap/good' research.

Parganos is pretty badly balanced, but Gandalf's change makes it better.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 04:42 PM

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Default Re: Henges - pregame discussion

The problem with EA Abysia is that it is the very definition of a one trick horse, the only mages that abysia has that are not fire are an old b2s1 warlock and a b1 apprentice (not counting randoms) and every time you buy one of those you are missing out on your awesome annointed of rhux.
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