Rambo Squad Alert !

[Arralen]

I know there's a subforum for discussing OOBs, and equipment and such, but this is so ... nonsensical, and against everything that I heard and read 'bout SPMBT (including from the devs), that I think I might bring it up here in the main forum. My gripe is not only 'bout the unit "design", but that they're in the official release, and that someone "designed" them that way in the first place!
Or am I all wrong?

Check out the rambo-quality "KSK Sec" (Unit 533/538; obat44 W.Germany) (btw: the other KSK Sec and the Fernspah Sec suffer from the same syndrome, too, and poor naming, but not as bad) ... :

Equipment:
Looks like someone applied the "standard" package to them .. rifle, MG, antitank, further goodie. Now, in my understanding, those are commandos - meant to go undetected, on their way in, and on their way out. That won't work with those =>

Numbers - ok, let's count:
4 grunts carrying rifles,
1 of them lugging the Milan launcher,
1 guy hauling the spare Milan.
1 guy has all the MG reserve ammo
1 soldier has the HK69 GL with 16 shots (bit more unwieldy than hand grenades, but come on ...)
1 guy has a MG3 ('tis a bit of nasty-big weapon, so he won't be carrying a lowly rifle)
Wait, that makes at least 5 of them (actually, I'm not sure if you don't need 2 people to haul the Milan launcher around, so let's go with the minimum number)

Oooh-kay, let's assume everyones is running around with a G36 with HK AG36 GL tucked under it (despite the OOBs has it otherwise). Then we have everyone with
- G36 plus 4 shot 40mm GL ammo
and additionally:
1x Milan launcher
1x Spare Milan
1x MG3
1x MG ammo

This might be ok for Rambo, it doesn't make sense for a commando squad IMHO: Surely, a commando does know how to use a MG3, or (maybe) how to fire a Milan. But the OOBs should present the units with their usual equipment, fit to do their usual tasks. So while it might the case that the KSK uses a Milan to blow up something, it's surely not standard every-day equipment, and therefore should be left out of the OOB - a scenario designer can always alter the equipment if he feels the need anyway.

Up to now, I thought the devs are thinking along these lines, too?!

EDIT:
PS - I forgot ... they're even supposed to swim with all that stuff !!
PPS - what I am actually missing is a FO guy in those platoons !?!?

[DRG]

Yes, the are somewhat overloaded and will be adjusted. Thanks for bringing the issue up twice.

Don

[Arralen]

Originally Posted by DRG

Thanks for bringing the issue up twice.
Don

The "issue" I want to discuss here is not that particular unit (there are several, and I haven't even started checking the other OOBs ...) - but the fact that someone put them in with those values, and nobody complains.

Ok, maybe it's just that W.Germany is decidedly uncool, and nobody plays them, so nobody could notice ...

[DRG]

There are units in the game that are and have always been what would be considered " overloaded " Mortar crews are a prime example. It's a game, not a military simulator and sometimes gameplay takes precedence over reality. Some special forces units have been that way in the past and many have been adjusted down somewhat but in the case of the German SF units that were just added you treat this as if it were a much discussed design decision instead of a simple oversight in the cut and paste process used when building units. Those Fernspaher have only been in the OOB barely a month and they are MINOR units so this isn't a case of "nobody complains" since that's EXACTLY what you are doing but you're doing your very best to build a minor side issue at best into something far greater than it is.

OK. it's been noted that there are issues with the German SF weapons loads. That's only an issue BECAUSE they were added but it's not like we gave each one 20 Milan's to carry so lets keep things in perspective..... OK ?

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Arralen;743631
This might be ok for Rambo, it doesn't make sense for a commando squad IMHO: Surely, a commando [I

does[/i] know how to use a MG3, or (maybe) how to fire a Milan. But the OOBs should present the units with their usual equipment, fit to do their usual tasks. So while it might the case that the KSK uses a Milan to blow up something, it's surely not standard every-day equipment, and therefore should be left out of the OOB - a scenario designer can always alter the equipment if he feels the need anyway.

Since you like to use Wiki quotes here's one for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommand...ialkr%C3%A4fte

Please note the list of equipment available includes Milans , stingers and G3's and given the "standard Mission" for these troops can be anything from dealing with a small groups of terrorists holding hostages to hit and run attacks on an enemy Hq( multitasking is why they exist ) offering weaponry like mentioned above is not out of the ordinary though I will endevour when looking through these units to ensure that a KSK section or platoon is not overloaded.

Don

[Wdll]

Not sure if it deserves a new thread so...
I noticed (don't remember their name now, but current date German OOB) they have 1-2 infantry squads who also carry a milan (one is the KSK but I think there is another one) and can fire their milan after moving the same turn, and/or counter attack with their milan although they are shown as moving at 4 or 6 mph. (when they are opponents).
I don't have much personal experience with them, but is it intended to have them (and perhaps similar squads from other OOBs if there are any) able to fire like that?
Just curious.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Not sure if it deserves a new thread so...
I noticed (don't remember their name now, but current date German OOB) they have 1-2 infantry squads who also carry a milan (one is the KSK but I think there is another one) and can fire their milan after moving the same turn, and/or counter attack with their milan although they are shown as moving at 4 or 6 mph. (when they are opponents).
I don't have much personal experience with them, but is it intended to have them (and perhaps similar squads from other OOBs if there are any) able to fire like that?
Just curious.

Actualy I have noticed something similar but with ATGM teams, cant remember sides but Dragon ATGM type II I think. Got a surprise as they had moved but when I fired at them after a shot or 2 they decided to return fire. Side was possibly Saudia Arabia

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

Actualy I have noticed something similar but with ATGM teams, cant remember sides but Dragon ATGM type II I think. Got a surprise as they had moved but when I fired at them after a shot or 2 they decided to return fire. Side was possibly Saudia Arabia

One of the Saudis leaders likely managed a "Heroic Rally" trying to remove your suppression. Extremely rare, but can happen even at low troop quality.

An HR returns move points & shots to full, so that will allow them to pull off an ATGM shot in reply to your incoming.

Cheers
Andy

[Imp]

Okay Andy learn something new all the time.
Almost sure that is what happened I thought at the time it seemed like they had taken fire & thought enough was enough so retaliated somehow.
Looks like that was indeed the case

[ShadowAUT]

Hmm in the Austria OOB, the Jagdkommando (which are the austrian Special forces) have 2 types of Units:
One equipped with:
STG 77
Hand Grenade
MG74
Satchel charge

The second type has:
STG 77
Hand Grenade
MG74
Panzerfaust3

I think its okay, I take the satchel JagdKommando if I want to do real commando missions with them, so blowing up bunkers or enemy Rara AA Guns etc behind enemy lines.
But if I have no intentions in such commando missions, it makes sense to take the second alternative, the Panzerfaust 3 instead of satchels.
Then the JagdKommando is a support Unit for standart infantry missions as every jaegergruppe does.

I think you should change the KSK same way, if you intend to use the KSK squad for fighting like standart infantry, give them Panzerfaust 3 instead of MILAN.
If you want to use them as defense unit against armoured targets, use a MILAN equipped KSK Squad (which then should have not an MG3. Instead of this, there should be another KSK Squad covering the Milan Squad.

The third KSK Squad Type should then be a demolitions squad.

Maybe a fourth option with a heavy sniper for scouting duties behind enemy lines would be somewhat realistic too, but this sorts of operations are usually the work for Fernspäher.

In reality the standart KSK Squad is:
1x Medic
1x Demolitions Expert
1x Radio Expert
1x Weapons Expert

The standart weapon loadout usually contains "light" weapons. the Milan is not a standart weapon, it will never be, because a MILAN needs at least 2 (if not 3) operatives to carry the weapons+equipment+ammo.

I give you a hint: change them to somewhat realistic squads, I did the same for the Austrian OOBs, where I have found so many errors meanwhile, that I had to undertake massive changes to austrian OOB.