Spells that arguably break the game

[Amadamus]

I want to pose the idea of removing specific types of spells from the game and would welcome others opinions as to the likely out come of such a removal.

Specifically, the removal of some very powerful and devastating globals, Burden of Time and Astral Corruption for example.

Infact offensive globals in general.

The removal of globals that return gems.

The removal of remote unrest spells.

The removal of assassin spells.

My reason for this is that isn’t it more fun to contest a game of dominion through battle?

I see the clash of vast armies with kitted out thugs, powerful mages and SC’s far more interesting that simply killing them from afar with Mind Hunts and Earth Attack etc. Some nations have assassins – shouldn’t that be an advantage to be leveraged through that nations units? Instead we have a few gem a pop spells spammed at a province removing the best part of a players imaginative efforts and gem and time investments over the last 10 - 15 turns?

Some globals are ridiculous! I’m playing in a newb game now and a Burden of Time has gone up which has more or less decimated my old mages which I have invested so much time and gems into. Just one spell – through no real effort, has effectively put me way behind the 8 ball. I could have handled it no problem if it occurred on the battlefield, but in this case bam all gone. It doesn’t make very engaging game play.

Remote unrest spell spam can shut down castle recruiting and take out capitals – economically damaging to say the least – no cap only recruiting… does this really represent strategic gaming or is it just a mundane exploit?

The point is, these types of spells require no strategy, no skill – just point and shoot!

What do others think? I just want my units to be bested in battle not in these cheesy no skill manners.

[LDiCesare]

Burden of Time shouldn't be an issue. You can Dispel it. You can also probably get everyone but Atlantis, Ermor and such long lived races to contribute so you can cast it with an additional 999 gems and be sure it's dispelled. You can also try to kill the mage who cast it, for instance by spamming earth attacks and other assassination spells on the province the caster is in.
You can also use boots of youth, rituals to resuscitate your D mages to simply counter some of the effect.

As for the general suggestions, there's a game called threeforts running with settings that look like this. But even then, the most gamebreaking spells are master enslave and all the teleport-like spells.

Offensive globals: Not really a problem. People who cast it will get ganged upon, enchantments will be dispelled. Even a lot of Armageddon wishes doesn't ruin the game. These are good imo, as they can help end the game faster.

Gem rituals: Well, they give a boost to the nation that can cast it indeed but it's an investment, and can be dispelled. The players who can put them up and keep them deserve the gems. They are somewhat unabalanced because if you get a capital revenue like MA Mictlan you're less likely to cast such a spell than if your revenue is all nature for instance, but nations can be balanced in other ways.

Remote unrest spells are about the only way to shut some capitals, and you can put up domes to prevent these. That's really easy to counter in important provinces (domes) so it's not an issue.

Assassin spells are a pain but bodyguards, bottles of living water, domes, all help. Assassin spells targetted at a SC that just conquered a province are much more painful. This is the only suggestion that I might agree with. Even then, there are counters (teleport/cloud trapeze a SC and then give orders to attack to 10 scouts into that province so the scouts get targeted, not the SC).

Overall, there are counters to all spells. There is strategy in countering them. There is strategy in researching them, making sure you don't spend your gems on something else, making sure you have a caster that can cast them (Flames from the Sky's not everyone's spell for instance), making sure you spend enough gems to not get dispelled, or that the dispellers will waste more than what you invested...

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

You can also use boots of youth, rituals to resuscitate your D mages to simply counter some of the effect.

Just tested it, Boots of youth or Elixirs of Life do absolutely nothing to prevent the global aging effect of BoT. So, if you're abysia, even a single casting of BoT will be pretty much GG as all your mages that can do something worthile get diseased pretty much instantly.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Just tested it, Boots of youth or Elixirs of Life do absolutely nothing to prevent the global aging effect of BoT. So, if you're abysia, even a single casting of BoT will be pretty much GG as all your mages that can do something worthile get diseased pretty much instantly.

Yep boots of youth do nothing to stave of BoT... there is no recourse. Thats what is rubbing me about it. Through no superior skill, my effective game is over.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Just tested it, Boots of youth or Elixirs of Life do absolutely nothing to prevent the global aging effect of BoT. So, if you're abysia, even a single casting of BoT will be pretty much GG as all your mages that can do something worthile get diseased pretty much instantly.

That sounds broken...

[RadicalTurnip]

I agree that BoT is slightly powerful, but the reason it is so powerful is that it hurts everyone. It just hurts some nations more because they have old mages. Rings of regen is a good counter to disease, btw.

But no, I don't want them taking any of that out. That "4 gem ritual" usually has to be spammed, making it...what, a 20-gem ritual? Plus 5 mage-turns that have at least 3 astral, plus hopefully some +pen items (or more astral). I love the "sit-back and wait for people to attack me so I can teach them the folly of doing so" tactic.

And yes, your capital should be nearly unassailable, I usually have Dome of Flaming Death (or the ice one) and at least one other dome up. That means that anyone that tries to hit it usually gets hit themselves.

You can always script your mages with returning...1S gem for complete assassination protection seems more overpowered than all your assassinate spells.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Burden of Time shouldn't be an issue. You can Dispel it. You can also probably get everyone but Atlantis, Ermor and such long lived races to contribute so you can cast it with an additional 999 gems and be sure it's dispelled. You can also try to kill the mage who cast it, for instance by spamming earth attacks and other assassination spells on the province the caster is in.
You can also use boots of youth, rituals to resuscitate your D mages to simply counter some of the effect.

As for the general suggestions, there's a game called threeforts running with settings that look like this. But even then, the most gamebreaking spells are master enslave and all the teleport-like spells.

Offensive globals: Not really a problem. People who cast it will get ganged upon, enchantments will be dispelled. Even a lot of Armageddon wishes doesn't ruin the game. These are good imo, as they can help end the game faster.

Gem rituals: Well, they give a boost to the nation that can cast it indeed but it's an investment, and can be dispelled. The players who can put them up and keep them deserve the gems. They are somewhat unabalanced because if you get a capital revenue like MA Mictlan you're less likely to cast such a spell than if your revenue is all nature for instance, but nations can be balanced in other ways.

Remote unrest spells are about the only way to shut some capitals, and you can put up domes to prevent these. That's really easy to counter in important provinces (domes) so it's not an issue.

Assassin spells are a pain but bodyguards, bottles of living water, domes, all help. Assassin spells targetted at a SC that just conquered a province are much more painful. This is the only suggestion that I might agree with. Even then, there are counters (teleport/cloud trapeze a SC and then give orders to attack to 10 scouts into that province so the scouts get targeted, not the SC).

Overall, there are counters to all spells. There is strategy in countering them. There is strategy in researching them, making sure you don't spend your gems on something else, making sure you have a caster that can cast them (Flames from the Sky's not everyone's spell for instance), making sure you spend enough gems to not get dispelled, or that the dispellers will waste more than what you invested...

My point is these spells propose a gamey element not that they can't be used or countered.

So what is the point of having the spell if every one will jsut band to gether to dispel it? Isnt that just a micromanagment issue? When the game is humming along nicely out comes BoT - great, now we have to organise a caster and gems etc... It doesn't add to the game experience it detracts from it and forces players to go through the hastle of getting rid off it. Mean time a player with a half decent start enjoying a competitive war gets crapped on and all that potential evaporates becasue of one spell.

Removing the gem gens in CBM removes a few head aches and micro issues, but the real benefit of it is that to get more gems you have to conquer more lands. Globals just provide gems for nothing really. Sure you have to make a sacrifice to put it up, but they pay for themselves quickly so its not that big a risk.

The issue of the games finishing quicker is moot if you adopt different ending conditions. I don't believe there needs to be full domination - 50 or 60% of capitals will suffice for victory. Pulling out big globals and remote spells is a crap way to finish a long strategic struggle.

A big part of the fun in dominions is watching the battle replay - seeing if your tactics prevail - hoping your heros survive another battle, These spells ensure that the outcome of the game is determined by impersonal mechanics - I am struggling to see how their inclusion benefits the game.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Amadamus

My point is these spells propose a gamey element not that they can't be used or countered.

So you're saying there's no way, in world, a mage couldn't contact a powerful being and send it to kill an enemy commander? Or try to find his mind from afar and snuff it? Seriously, they make as much sense as anything else...

So what is the point of having the spell if every one will jsut band to gether to dispel it? Isnt that just a micromanagment issue? When the game is humming along nicely out comes BoT - great, now we have to organise a caster and gems etc... It doesn't add to the game experience it detracts from it and forces players to go through the hastle of getting rid off it. Mean time a player with a half decent start enjoying a competitive war gets crapped on and all that potential evaporates becasue of one spell.

Diplomacy. Diplomacy is the point of the spell. If you can't get the requisite gems together it means: (1) Your opponent is winning anyway and the spell lets him do it faster, this is good. (2) Your diplomacy failed. He has too many allies who'd rather have his spell stay up (possibly because you or someone else is scarier), and thus won't contribute to dispelling it. If neither of those is true, you should be able to bring it down. Its not micromanagement though, diplomacy is a critical aspect of the game, and you should be forced to conduct it to deal with sufficiently dangerous threats.

Removing the gem gens in CBM removes a few head aches and micro issues, but the real benefit of it is that to get more gems you have to conquer more lands. Globals just provide gems for nothing really. Sure you have to make a sacrifice to put it up, but they pay for themselves quickly so its not that big a risk.

Gems from globals are (1) not invisible and (2) are vulnerable to 'attack', either by being overcast or by killing the caster or by being dispelled. And if you put it up with more gems than minimal, the risk of not making back your investment is very real.

The issue of the games finishing quicker is moot if you adopt different ending conditions. I don't believe there needs to be full domination - 50 or 60% of capitals will suffice for victory. Pulling out big globals and remote spells is a crap way to finish a long strategic struggle.

So put them up first? If your opponent manages to distract you from the big picture by complicating the little picture, and then throws up a game changing global, whose fault is it that you weren't prepared to deal with it? Oh right, yours. You can pre-emptively occupy all the global slots to prevent people from throwing up globals, you know.

A big part of the fun in dominions is watching the battle replay - seeing if your tactics prevail - hoping your heros survive another battle, These spells ensure that the outcome of the game is determined by impersonal mechanics - I am struggling to see how their inclusion benefits the game.

Because a lot of these spells fill necessary niches. Stealth raiders would be pretty broken if not for mindhunt. Oh no, the horrors, it makes you forge AMAs for all those stealth raiders. Making raiding more costly over time is a good thing - your opponent should be able to fight back, after all!

Finally, a lot of these spells add a real strategic element to the game. Some of us enjoy the strategic aspect at least as much as the tactical aspect. Wars are not just fought with armies, they are fought with propaganda, information, morale, production, key leaders, etc... all of these things should be open to attack.

[Diabl0658]

I have to agree on burden of time, if only because its so easy to cast. For such a powerful spell to only require level 5 research is a little ridiculous.

Everything else though is easily countered, astral mages to block mindhunts, domes to block unrest spells. Even astral corruption is little more then an inconvenience with proper scripting and bodyguards.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by Diabl0658

I have to agree on burden of time, if only because its so easy to cast. For such a powerful spell to only require level 5 research is a little ridiculous.

Everything else though is easily countered, astral mages to block mindhunts, domes to block unrest spells. Even astral corruption is little more then an inconvenience with proper scripting and bodyguards.

Look for sure it can be countered - but look at the micro involved to have to do that.

Manuvere a sneeky thug into a prime spot attack the province - win - mind hunt - dead. It is not always possible to have an astral unit on hand - especially Tir who dont have astral.

If you are a non astral nation up against an astral one, then you will be mind hunted to hell. And besides mind hunt, what about Earth Attack? Not very easy to counter that one - devastating spell.

These spells just seem like an intrusion upon the game whereby the finese of the strategy gives way to uninspired heavy handed drugery. Being forced to counter said effects (and indeed some times it cant be countered), introduces extra micro that doesnt enhance the experience at all.