Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration

[leonardus]

Hi again,

So, if no replay log, no chance to evidence the marvel what instantly appear (and dissapear)from the bottom line, under the form of asterics ! Let's figure out what's I'm talking about:
the main reason for what I was moving from SPWAW to SPWW2 after years of playing is a much better battle accuracy. And that in many ways. One is the Small Amo HE Penetration positive results !!!
Because I was intrigued by the Non penetrating messages from many rifle sized amo vs. armored target (with distinct sound) I suspected much more in the game routines. So, I maked a test. Because the OOB's offered only HE amo for an 7.62 mm TMG, I used the editor and gave only AP amo's ! And with that I started a custom made scenario and fired hundreds of times upon an armored tarhet with armor=1. And, I left AP penetration=0. After only a few shots the marvel TAKE PLACE !!! Huray ! Huray ! A 2 asterics indicated damage and indeed the crew was lowered by 1 on target. So, it's possible like in reality was/is. Always, are weaker spots, opened slits, etc and even the amo didn't have the power to penetrate a 1 still damage occurs. Off course, very rare, but occurs. And after I wanted to repeat that to be sure I'm not seeing ghosts. But, now, after 80 or 90 shots, one resulted in an asterics. OK. It's REAL.
Now, I'm wandering if somebody ''managed'' to have such results with rifle HE amo. I am not disposed to test another hundreds of shots. I suspected YES. Because it's real too. So, combat routines details were not dissapointed me at all by now.
Only one question: can somebody to point the percentage of this kind of shots ?

L.

[leonardus]

So, noone ever encountered a damage from HE=0 penetration buletts ?

L.

[gabeeg]

Oh yeah, I have had machine guns damage armored vehicles before. I do not recall if they were pen 1 or pen 0 though... It happens occasionally...usually when you least want it to in a PBEM game

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

HE rounds will sometimes penetrate light armor, for example, .50 cal rounds will bother things with armor 1 or 2, grenades will do the same, but usually have better results due to warhead size, so don't hesitate to machinegun down those pesky apcs, direct fire mortars and other HE guns will do it as well, You will also note the "weak spot" hit thing, that is a very nice feature, as it will grant you a bonus to the penetration value, this is especially useful for ATR and light guns.

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by gabeeg

Oh yeah, I have had machine guns damage armored vehicles before. I do not recall if they were pen 1 or pen 0 though... It happens occasionally...usually when you least want it to in a PBEM game

And I forget where I read that maximum penetration is extented with the following formula:
extrapenetration=HE penetration + Warhead size.
So, if we had HE=2, warhead=3, and armor=4, in some cases (I don't know the percentage) we get damage, despite the fact that normally the penetration is lower than the armor value.
So, with the same principle, for the rifle ammo (for example) HE=0, Warhead size=1, we must have a penetration of 1 !!! in some circumstances. Again, I don't know the odds. Maybe is usefull somebody from the developers to state that.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Very, very, VERY low. i never had a 0 pen rifle penetrate anything, only heavy rifles and machineguns

[Cross]

Go into the main game folder. There's a file in there called 'WW2_APCALC.exe'

This program will tell you the maximum penetration for every weapon.

But make sure you read the notes:

WW2_APCALC_HELP.TXT

When APCalc first starts up it will automatically load the first valid OOB.
Use the arrow button on the "Select OOB" drop down combo box to select
a different OOB.

When you select a weapon, APCalc will display the average result from
1000 calculations at various range increments starting with 50 yards. AP and
Sabot will both display a result up to and beyond the maximum range of
the weapon with a drop to zero or -1 indicating the maximum
range has been
exceeded or that type of ammo is not rated. A weapon with no AP or Sabot
ratings will show zero and -1 from 50 yards. A weapon with poor AP
performance for example may drop to zero quite quickly but still show a
"Best" result of 1 or 2 up to it's maximum range but "best" is simply the
highest pen returned of ONE(1) of the 1000 samples of that batch so "best"
is a "golden BB" shot as well, "best" relies on warhead size and chance
factors in order to be achieved, so don't "bet the farm" on it happening
often!.

HE and HEAT have only one result displayed at 50 yards as those types of
rounds are not affected by range but hold that potential penetration up to
the max range of the weapon ( the AP range ) so a weapon may have a 70 hex
range ( 3500 yards ) with HEAT but the calculator will only show the one
result but that result will apply up to the maximum 70 hex range. Both HEAT
and HE results are greatly affected by random factors that use the warhead
size as a starting point so those two types of ammo can show the greatest
fluctuation in this calculator and in the game.

Re-sampling can and will give a different average results sometimes
depending on the influence of the random factors the game uses to calculate
penetration. To resample a weapon simply click on it again and remember
these are AVERAGES. If you see a weapons penetration jump back and forth
between two different numbers frequently it's because the average between
the two numbers is close to 50/50. If you see it change but less frequently
that indicates the possible penetrations average is a wider spread.

NOTE 1

The calculator does not take into account the critical hit for weak spots
allowed when to-hit probability is high (80% or more to-hit) at under 500
metres.

NOTE 2

Penetration happens when the pen value is greater or equal to the armour of
the target. This is less so for HE, which usually requires over penetration,
especially if the warhead size is low. This calculator also has nothing to
say about the behind armour calculations which convert penetration to damage
or kills those are done AFTER a penetration has occurred.

---



Cross

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by Cross

Go into the main game folder. There's a file in there called 'WW2_APCALC.exe'

Very good but not usefull in that particular situation. For my Maxim TMG the value for HE=0,AP=0 and the best HE=0 and best AP=0. No matter how many times I reclick on it the values are the same. That's what I didn't encountered in the game sometimes....My experiment shows clearly damages !!!Maybe more ''ocult'' parameters
are counted in the game engine. By the way, how are managed the ''weak spot'' and ''extrapenetration'' for this warhead size =1 and HE=0 ?? I'm very curious, because it's obvious that after hundred or thousands of common bullets fired onto armour=0 from close range, especially at older armors, a little procentage will hit some weapon slits, sighting slits, weak bolts, etc, and get damage. I was read some kind of happenings in ww2.

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Very, very, VERY low. i never had a 0 pen rifle penetrate anything, only heavy rifles and machineguns

I don't ask for brute penetration which is obvious, but some kind of very, very rare situation of weak spots, extrapenetration, etc...

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

weak spots do exist and experienced crews usually hit it at close range, but i think that only applies to ap or heat rounds, not sure if HE has weak spot bonus