Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

Time for Poland, before next release.

The information on British vehicles in Polish service comes as a rule from a great book by J. Magnuski "Wozy bojowe Polskich Sił Zbrojnych 1940-1946" (Polish AFVs 1940-1946)

Class 12 Light tank:

08 Honey II - in Polish Army they were known under the tank's official name Stuart II (Honey was a British nickname). According to Magnuski, they were received not earlier, than 9/42 (now 7/42). This type was used for training only until autumn 1943 (now 5/44) - later they were replaced by Stuart V.
Picture 380 is M3A3 Stuart V, while it should be earlier model. Perfect for the British service is 27736, or a photo 12539.

It should have a stabiliser (like British one), but a gun should be M5 (like British standard Honey). The ammo load seems too AP-biased.

There should be added Stuart V, with M6 gun and slanted armour (possibly the same overall thickness) and photo 380. They were used from late 1943 until 1946.

09 Stuart VI - is OK

453 Vickers Mk VIc - only Mk VIb variant was used (#298 from a British oob) with .50 Vickers TMG and Vickers CMG. Photo 631 is probably OK.
It was used only for training in Egypt from 6/42 until 11/43 (now: 7/40-6/42)

470 FR AMR-35,
473 - FR AMR-35 ZT - they probably represent French tanks (available 11/039 to 06/040), but IMO there's no need for French tanks in Polish OOB, especially, that Polish units used own R-35 at that time.

Changes in Class 12 need changes in formations: 184, 185 which either need a gap in 7/40-5/42 period, or they should start in 6/42, if you remove AMR-35 completely.

Also, in 396 Infantry Tk Co (avail. 07/40-03/41) a light tank needs to be removed. Maybe it should be replaced with Dingo or something else, but I don't know what.

[Pibwl]

Class 105 Infantry tank

10, 11 Matilda II, CS - there is no trace of Matilda II in Polish service.

They could be replaced with Churchill II, used for training from around 8/41 until 5/42 (data like British Churchill I, but with Besa BMG instead of 3in CSH).
There's no evidence, if Polish units had also Churchill I.

16 Sherman I
17 Sherman V
19 Sherman IB - I can't understand a reason why these tanks are used in late-war Infantry Tank units, if they are doubled as ordinary Medium tanks in the OOB (and even tripled as CS tanks). There were no infantry tank units in Polish forces at that time and Sherman tanks were used in combat in the 1st Armoured Division and 2nd Armoured Brigade, not infantry tank units. IMO they could be removed. Otherwise, they should be corrected, accordingly with units 26, 27, 29 (described later).

446 Matilda I - used for training from 9/41 until 9/42 only (now: 7/40-12/40).
Max speed was 13 km/h (now 6) [Magnuski] - same for the British OOB units 27 and 112.

There could be also variant with .50 Vickers TMG, possibly replacing unit 11 Matilda II.

457 FT-18 - there was no official designation "FT-18", and such designation isn't met in Poland (new works suggest though, that even a popular "FT-17" isn't an official designation, and they were just "Renault FT"). Anyway, I suggest a name "FT-17 /37mm" or "Renault FT 37mm"

I don't know why are they supposed to be used until 10/41 - they were used by the Poles until a fall of France in 6/40 only, and for training (in fact, they ceased to be used in 10/39 and were given by the French again in 3/40).

Is radio 1 correct?

471 - FR Char-D2 - Available 11/039 to 06/040
472 - FR Char-B1 - Available 11/039 to 06/040 - again, they are French tanks, not used by the Poles (and I assume, that the Polish infantry did not even met these types in field).

Polish forces in France used in combat R-35, which was by definition an infantry tank, and is forgotten for that period in the OOB. They should be used in 5-6/40. Both variants with short and long 37mm guns were used (according to Magnuski, long guns had platoons' commanders).
Most probably there were 3-tank platoons - four platoons and a commander's tank created a company (like in a Polish 1939 R-35 battalion).

Also R-40 tanks were used in 6/40, all with long 37mm guns, in uniform companies.

R-35 tank can replace #477 H-35 tank - there were only few (2?) used for training only.

It's a matter of choice if R-35 should be 13 or 105 class. Maybe there should be created separate uniform units with R-40 and mixed units with R-35 short barrel and long barrel for a commander. FT-17 with MG / gun could fit into the same formations (gun for a commander - they were used for training only anyway).

---
As a result, all class 105 Inf tank formations need to be changed - they should end in 6/40 and start again in 8/41 (Churchill) until 9/42 (Matilda I).

[Mobhack]

The "French" equipment probably dates from before we introduced the ALLIES button, and were there to represent French troops attached in support of the Poles in that period. (There are or used to be other OOBs that have this sort of stuff, e.g. Free French, the UK used to have the oddities for Polish and French units in Norway at one point).

So they probably can be removed, bar any French-supplied equipment actually in use by themselves in that brief period.

That may well require some pick list changes - its been a long time since I looked at the Polish one.

Andy

[Pibwl]

Since there should be Polish R-35s in 5-6/40, there's no need of French tanks IMO.

I suggest to make it this way:
A standard platoon, for a pick list, should be made of one long gun tank (eg. class 105) and two short gun tanks (eg. class 106, like unit 456 FT-17). FT-17s should have radio code 1, R-35 should have 2.
Four such platoons should create a company (3-tank platoons and 13-tank companies have been confirmed).
Such formations should be available in 3-6/40.

I suggest also to create strengthened platoons, with three long-gun tanks and with two long-gun and one short-gun tank, in 6/40, representing a choice of tanks after less valuable ones had been left without a fuel (they could be marked eg. with ++/+).
It's also worth to create such company, with, say, four platoons with two long-gun tanks - I believe, it would represent better a mixed company taking part in a last skirmish of Montbard.

There should be also added R-40 tank (194 in a French oob), used in uniform platoons and companies. I believe it's best to give it own class, with separate formations. Picture could be 27549 or 27564.

By the way, R-40 could be given a modified icon, with slightly longer tracks to the rear, and a tail.

[Pibwl]

It might be noted, that in 11/39 - 2/40 and 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only (in UK and Egypt/Palestine). They could have faced some invasion however...

Next:

(mainly class 13 Med tanks)

12 Valentine III - this variant was used only from 2/43 until at least 11/43 (now 11/41 - 12/42)
Photo shows some 3-men early variant (as in the British OOB)

13, 14 Valentine IX - similar Valentine VIII is known to be used by the Polish, from 2/43 until at least 11/43 (now 7-12/42 for #13, 1-12/43 for #14 with AAMG). There is no information on Polish Valentine IX.
There are no AAMGs on photos of Polish tanks evident (and it was not, that only after 1/43 all 6pdr Valentines were fitted with AAMG - so they might be two options of the same tank, or merged into one, either with, or without AAMG).

448 Valentine II - used from 11/40 until at least 5/42 (now 7/40-10/41). (Possibly earliest were Valentine I, but it's essentially the same).


By the way, as for Valentines in all OOBs: in Valentine III and V due to increased weight, side hull armour was reduced from 60 to 50 mm, and in VIII-XI - to 43 mm (now they all have 6). Turret rear (at least in 2pdr variants, but maybe in all) had 60 mm (according to some sources, even 65 mm) - now it has 5.


18 Sherman I [as CS tank] - generally 75mm Sherman I wasn't used by the Polish. It should be changed to Sherman III, which was a basic tank of the 2nd Arm.Bde on Italian theatre, used from 10/43 until end of 1946 (now 1/43-5/45).
Photo is M4A1 Sherman II - could be 27725 or 27726.

(I omit Infantry Tank Shermans mentioned before, to be removed IMO)

21 Comet - wasn't used by the Polish.

24, 146 Centurion Mk 1 - sci-fi unit in Polish case.

26 Sherman I (Med tank) - as unit 18, should be replaced with Sherman III, used in 10/43-12/46 (and fitted with AAMG).

27 Sherman V - used from 10/43 (OK) until 11/44 in combat units (now 12/46). (I'm not counting Polish training units in UK, which sure used them longer. In case of the 3rd war they could have been used)

28, 125, 130, 200 VC Firefly - I suggest name Sherman Firefly - there are only Fireflies VC in this OOB, and a difference between Firefly IC (which was also used by the Polish) is not worth mentioning.

Units 28 and 200 [class Gun tank] should be merged into one IMO. The only difference is, that #200 is available in 6-7/44 and has radio code 0, while #28 is available in 8/44-12/46 and has radio code 1, which is strange, since it should be more popular with time, and there's nothing, that could replace it in Sherman troops.
IMO there should be only unit 28 left, with a radio code 0, available from 6/44 until the end.

29 Sherman IB [CS tank] - used from 2/45 only (9/44).

33 Crocodile - wasn't used by the Polish.

The only flame tank used, that could be added, was Wasp IIC (#128 in British OOB), used probably from around 6/44 (no closer date). Photos of Polish vehicles show, that they also had external Bren mounted (same could be for the British OOB).

To finish with class 13 Med tanks:

438 Grant I - should be removed - there were only few recovered Grants used for training as non-standard vehicles. 3 were used as command tanks in the 2nd Arm.Bde. staff.

441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer)

442 Crusader II - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 (now 1/42 - 9/42) (used mostly as command tanks, so we can finish with them earlier as well). Late tanks had removed BMG turret.

443 Crusader I - not used by the Polish, especially from 5/41

444 A13 Mk II - not used by the Polish.
Should be replaced with A13 Mk III Covenanter (986 in British OOB), used from 5/42 until 11/43. Radio code should be 0 or 1 (now 2 - it was less numerous and worse, than Crusader).
An interesting fact is, that Polish Covenanter is regarded as the first tank knocked out on the British soil by the Germans (bombed on 1/6/42).

474 - FR Somua S-35 - to be removed

477 - H-35 - as I wrote, few were used for training - might be removed.

I'll deal with formations later.

[Pibwl]

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:


375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks.

Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45

By the way: it's worth to change Troop to Platoon, to better fit Polish naming (pluton).



012 46 Tank Company
013 46 Tank Platoon - Available: 01/46-12/46

They seem to be on AI pick list in 1/46 - 12/46

Now it has 4 tanks - a template unit should be changed from a fictitious Centurion.
I think, that four 3-tank platoons will be more appropriate (now it has three 4-tank platoons) - seems, that 3 were standard in Great Britain, possibly with exception of added Fireflies.

Its availability should extend back from 11/44 - it would represent the 1st Arm.Div rearmed to Sherman IIA
In 1/46-12/46 it would also represent the 2nd Arm.Div (former Bde) deprived of Fireflies post-war (switched to diesel-only)

A small problem is, that in 6/44-12/45 the formations used in Western Europe and Italy were different (in Italy Fireflies were received only in 2/45, while in ETO the 1st Arm.Div had switched to uniform Sherman IIA platoons in 11/44). I suggest to solve it this way:

- unit #203 Sherman IIA [Gun tank] should be changed to Med tank with a radio code 2, available until 12/46 (now 12/45). (its usage as a Gun tank is wrong).
- formation 012 46 Tank Company should be the AI pick from 11/44. It will ignore usage of Firefly companies in Italy, but a primary theatre of operation was ETO, where Polish Shermans IIA could be met - and they also fulfilled occupation service in Germany post-war
- formation 375 44 Tank Sqdn should be picked by the AI in 6/44-10/44 only
- if unit 027 Sherman V is available after 11/44, it should have radio code changed to 0

Besides, it's worth to change Company to Sqdn, to better fit Polish naming (szwadron), and to remove "46" naturally.



190 Medium Tank - Available: 11/39-12/46
391 Medium Tank Sec - Available: 11/39-12/46
- concerning Polish tanks only, it should be available from 11/40. And they rather should be used in platoons by 3, not sections by 2.

257 Pel AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40
258 Esc AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40
- formations of French tanks, to be removed.


377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44
378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42
379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44
- names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training, and the units in ME used Valentines all the time, while the units in the UK switched to cruisers in 6/42, so I suggest to rename it just Tank Squadron / Tank Platoon.

Formation 377 (with 2 CS tanks) should be extended to 1/45, to cover as far, as Sherman-armed 2nd Arm.Bde units before it got Fireflies.

Then, it should be on AI pick list in 1/44 - 5/44 (or maybe even earlier). It seems, that in this period, the AI buys 397 Inf Tk Sqdn, what makes us keep unit 16 Sherman I as an infantry tank. Maybe an OOB creator considered the 2nd Arm.Bde to be infantry tank unit, but I don't think it is the case, even if it was a part of the 2nd Corps and often fought together with infantry. IMO there's no need to introduce more units, than it's needed and duplicate Shermans as Med and Infantry tanks. Especially, that from 2/45 these Infantry tanks should be supplemented with Fireflies.
(BTW, unit 16 could be re-nationalized rather then deleted, since it may be used in some user scenarios.)


As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time, except for 5-6/40. In the last period, we could create an R-35 company, described earlier.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Further in units:

34 Priest - wasn't used by the Polish

37 Bishop - wasn't used by the Polish

Template unit in formation 82 SPA Troop should be 36 Sexton, and it should start at 1/44

43 Humber Mk IV - photo is MK.II/III (proper is 30121). Used by the Polish from 6/43 (now 1/44) - for training only

44 Daimler A/C - used in 8/42-10/43 (now 1/43-5/44) - for training only

45 Staghound (precisely, Staghound I) - used from around 9/43 (now 6/44), radio should be 92 (common).

61 2 pdr AA-Gun - never heard of such gun in Polish units. Should be replaced with ordinary 40 mm Bofors.

104 Hurricane II - precisely IIc (with 20 mm guns).

I assume, that the aircraft don't have to be from Polish RAF squadrons (which had no operational independence), but rather a general RAF air support? (eg. Polish squadrons had no Typhoons)

125 VC Firefly [Med tank, 1946] - to be removed - Fireflies weren't used as Med tanks in that period.

128 4.7in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 120mm Naval Gun

129 6in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 152mm Naval Gun (I assume it's allied general support)

130 VC Firefly [Tank destroyer] - I'm not sure, if it's a proper class...
We could alternatively create a platoon of three Class 59 Gun Tanks, available in 6/44-12/46, in case a player wanted to use such support.

131 Archer - received only around 12/44 (9/44), radio code should be 91

132 M10 17 pdr - radio should be 92 (now 91) - it was a basic equipment in ETO.

There should be also basic M10 3in added - since 11/43 until 6/45, radio 90.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:


375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks.

Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45

"three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly"........... including a firefly WHAT ? tank ? Platoon ?. It appears you are saying these should be two tanks plus a firefly instead of 3+1 but it could also be you are saying one of the platoons was pure firefly and therefore there should be three tank platoons plus a firefly platoon

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

It might be noted, that in 11/39 - 2/40 and 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only (in UK and Egypt/Palestine).

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:

-snip


377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44
378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42
379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44
- names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training,

-snip



As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time,

-snip


Michal

there are now NO Polish armour between, as you say "11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only "

I'm not building training tank formations for Poland. Sorting this all out so it all works at the end is PITA and I am not the least bit interested in doing it again next year so I hope you're happy with what you end up with since you have given me the "Polish tanks were used for training only between 11/40 - 3/44 more than once so that's what you're getting. The AI will be picking allied formations and a human player can pick allied if they need armour during the interm and I'm ripping out everything post the fall of France that isn't used by a line unit starting 4/44.


Don

[Pibwl]

Further minor tweaks for units mentioned before:

27 Sherman V - photo is M4A1 Sherman II - could be 27730.

29 Sherman IB [CS tank] - radio could be 92, so that it's primary choice after its introduction in 2/45 (or 018 Sherman I and 201 Sherman V could as well end on 1/45)

441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer)

442 Crusader II - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 (now 1/42 - 9/42) (used mostly as command tanks, so we can finish with them earlier as well). Late tanks had removed BMG turret.

For a sake of convenience, it's better to end them in 12/43, so that they are not picked by the AI in 1944 (provided, that we put a Med Tank formation on a pick list in 1/44-5/44). From 10/43 a main tank became Sherman.

375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. (...)

In a book by M. Żebrowski (a former Polish officer) published in London on a Polish armour, he gave a composition of an armoured regiment of four 3-tank platoons, although he doesn't specifically deal with Fireflies (possibly he didn't fought in the 1st Arm.Div).