Fortifications

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hi
When I shell a bunker the bunker takes on some suppression if I shell it a lot that can be a lot of suppression however, if the bunker has troops loaded into it those troops take on much less suppression than the Bunker itself. For example the bunker might have suppression of 55 but the carried troops will only have a suppression of maybe 2. You can view this on the Unit menu. But when I unload the troops they then get the bunkers suppression added on to them. Considering that most bunkers are specifically designed to protect troops from shelling and do an excellent job of it shouldnt the carried troops unload with the suppression they got while in the bunker only, and not get the bunkers suppression added on when they dismount or exit?

After all in WWI after hours of heavy shelling MG crews were able to move out of their shelters in good order, set up there guns and mow down hundreds of troops as soon as the shelling stopped. This happened on a regular basis.

I dont know if this is actually the case but shouldnt the bunker itself get much less suppression in the first place anyway? that is compared to infantry in the open for example. They are after all designed to resist being shelled.

[kulik242]

As I understand it, the bunker is to prevent causalities. The troops can shake off the suppression within two turns or so.

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

They are after all designed to resist being shelled.

I believe they were designed to resist direct fire (mostly small arms) - as Kulik said "to prevent casualties - and SOP when facing a pesky bunker was to shell it...

[jp10]

When a squad exits a fortification they have very little situational awareness. They usually are deploying single file out a door, they have to take up a tactical formation or assume positions in a defensive trench or position, crew served weapons have to be put into action, enemy has to located. In reality dismounting from an APC should start a unit with some suppression. You are rolling and rocking across the terrain, there is a sudden stop, the turret gun starts firing, the TC is yelling "enemy, right flank, 200 meters. deploy on line to the left" the ramp comes down and you exit by automatic to take up a formation without really knowing what is around you.

[Kiwikkiwik]

OK so actually exactly the opposite is true. Fortifications are vulnerable to direct fire and invulnerable to indirect fire, shelling. The roof is always as thick as possible, say a metre of reinforced concrete, impervious to artillery and of course the chance of a direct hit is vanishingly small anyway. However direct fire can easily lob in through the embrasure.
A squad leaving a bunker should have good situational awareness the fortification is stationary and they will have drills in place. At the very least they had to get into it so probably saw something of the immediate surrounds on the way in. Anyway a 3 minute turn is enough time to be fully deployed by turns end.
Bunkers are specifically designed to mow down infantry WHILE the bunker is being shelled, that is their purpose. In the game they do not represent a difficulty because they can be suppressed into uselessness in a single turn as they get the same level of suppression as a squad lying in the open. Compounding this is the fact that suppression from indirect fire artillery is way too high by at least a factor of 5 which I demonstrated in the thread on feature requests. Suppression IS correctly very low for the carried troops while being shelled, except for some odd reason when they exit, when the bunkers suppression is added on to them and it skyrockets. To me that looks like a bug.

A suppression level of 1 or 2 would be appropriate for a unit leaving a shelled bunker because in the bunker they are aware that they are safe from shelling.
I would think it makes sense if the shelled carried troops in the bunker only get low suppression, shouldn't the crew of the bunker (i.e. the bunker itself) also get low suppression in the first place?

A quote about the siegfried line from the book World war II infantry assault tactics by Rottman

Artillery and mortars blanketed the target (Bunker) and adjacent bunkers as the assault troops moved into position; these fires would not damage the bunkers, but suppressed the infantry dug in around them and blasted away concealing vegetation.

Note dug in troops are suppressed but not the bunker itself.

Don't forget shellshock varied greatly between armies. In Armies where it was treated it was very common, In Armies where the treatment was a bullet in the head it was a lot less prevalent. If crewed by poor quality troops the suppression will take a lot longer than 2 moves to wear off.

[jp10]

Bunkers have limited vision. He rounds produce a lot of smoke and dirt when they explode. They also produce a pressure wave and loud sound. Even if the bunker is 'undamaged' defending troops within while under a bombardment would have hearing and field of vision limitations inflicted upon them.
Direct fire against a bunker only has to be directed against the firing ports unlike a trench line.

It seems to me that the situation the game designers envisioned is thus:
If a bunker has a high level of suppression it has been under a lot of fire effects (either direct or indirect) around the bunker area.
If a squad exits a bunker it is entering that area around the bunker and is now exposed to these suppression causing attacks.
Since all the actions in a turn are not phased it cannot be determined if the squad exited after all attacks had completed for the turn or during the attacks. When squads exit the bunker can be in one of two conditions, under fire or not under fire. If under fire the squad should have some penalty and the application of the bunker's suppression level seems appropriate since the levels of suppression should indicate how intensive the attacks on the bunker were.

[Imp]

Its a game
Units exiting a bunker do so for one of 2 reasons.
The threats over so would be unsuppressed as the bunker is likely to be.
They are in big trouble need to exit to prevent entrance by the enemy therefore they should be suppressed situation is terminal.

Suppression represents loss of awareness, big HE will cause vision issues from the bunkers restricted views.
Fairly sure fortifications recover suppression faster than normal, see game guide. You need to keep up heavy sustained fire to let units move up in relative safety.

[Kiwikkiwik]

OK so
Explosive dust vision effects are already covered by dust/smoke in the game no need to add suppression for these any more than for a unit walking into a dust cloud from a clear hex.
Once out of the bunker your bunker vision issues no longer apply. so no need to add suppression for these either.
It only requires very light shelling to make the fortification suppressed enough to be useless, not heavy. And of course the vast proportion of shells would not land anywhere near the embrasure. have a look at the dispersion of a typical ww2 field piece. see figure 4 at
http://nigelef.tripod.com/errorsmistakes.htm
for example

Imp you say

The threat is over so would be unsuppressed as the bunker is likely to be.

The move after shelling stops, the bunkers is only -likely- to be unsuppressed if you are playing 100 morale units. if Your playing low morale troops the Bunker Suppression may last maybe 6 or 10 moves, depending. So the threat isn't likely to be over as soon as the shelling stops. not by a long shot

jp10 you say

they exit under fire or not under fire

Until the suppression is removed, they cannot exit -not under fire-. It might be 5 or 6 turns or more until the carried unit can exit -not under fire- ie with no suppression addition.

Imp there is nowhere in the help I can find where forts suppression diminishes any faster than any other units, nor can I find anywhere in help where a fortification gets less suppression than an infantry squad in the open, which makes me think the -shelter- bunker isn't particularly well named.