BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(

[PsychoTechFreak]

If the 1000kT per pop unit is the main root cause, and it looks like this, if I understand oleg's post correctly:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=007969;p=1

... Can there even be another workaround than to reduce the population weights again? I don't think so. To compensate this (e.g. if we say 10kt per pop unit) one would need to multiply the planet production modifiers as well as the planet population itself by 100 or 1000 in case of 1kt per pop unit. But I guess I am fantasizing again...

EDIT: Impossible, but it would be nice if we could setup population max numbers by planet sizes to a lot higher values...

[ March 13, 2003, 15:40: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
If the 1000kT per pop unit is the main root cause, and it looks like this, if I understand oleg's post correctly:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=007969;p=1

... Can there even be another workaround than to reduce the population weights again? I don't think so. To compensate this (e.g. if we say 10kt per pop unit) one would need to multiply the planet production modifiers as well as the planet population itself by 100 or 1000 in case of 1kt per pop unit. But I guess I am fantasizing again...

Actually, this is exactly what I did in my fix for 1.84 AI tendancy to ship 500 population units to a closest planet (even if it is domed moon !)
It works really great and helps AI a lot but still does not eliminate "can not load cargo" problem. Here is again the link to my modified files:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1045337937.ZIP

Description of what I did :http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...=007969#000000

Oh, sorry, I just noticed you suggest to change population mass even more ! Somehow I think it is not related to population mass. I am curios, did anybody noticed this problem in unmoded SE ????

[ March 13, 2003, 15:41: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:
Oh, sorry, I just noticed you suggest to change population mass even more ! Somehow I think it is not related to population mass. I am curios, did anybody noticed this problem in unmoded SE ????

I'm curious now also and I am about to do some testing about the issue tonight.
What I was talking about is (impossible at the moment), change pop mass back to 1kT (if it does not have the same problems or probably just a postpone of problems) and instead of this:

Let the planets start with 2,000,000 (medium) and multiply the pop modifiers by 1000. But this is hardcoded AFAIK, so it would be more a kind of requested feature.

[JLS]

Originally posted by oleg:
I'll send the example when I come home. But you can simply start a new proportions game, turn-based movements, several AI players. After about turn 40-50, switch to a computer player and you will see the problem. If somehow everything is all right, try another AI player. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Races with my AI are more exampliary because they build more transports. But I saw this weird behaivor with Abbidon and CueCappa.

I can wait for the attachment, I may need some additional Data files you may have changed?

EDIT:
I think it best I distence my self from Proportions, at this time.
Besides PTF, seems to be on track

[ March 13, 2003, 23:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
What I was talking about is (impossible at the moment), change pop mass back to 1kT (if it does not have the same problems or probably just a postpone of problems) and instead of this:

Let the planets start with 2,000,000 (medium) and multiply the pop modifiers by 1000. But this is hardcoded AFAIK, so it would be more a kind of requested feature.[/QB]

No it is not hardcoded. Population level is in planetsize.txt, pop. modifiers and mass in settings.txt. If it was hardcoded, proportions would be impossible

[oleg]

Originally posted by JLS:

quote:

---

Originally posted by oleg:
I'll send the example when I come home. But you can simply start a new proportions game, turn-based movements, several AI players. After about turn 40-50, switch to a computer player and you will see the problem. If somehow everything is all right, try another AI player. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Races with my AI are more exampliary because they build more transports. But I saw this weird behaivor with Abbidon and CueCappa.

I can wait for the attachment, I may need some additional Data files you may have changed?

---

My modified data files are here :
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1045337937.ZIP

It has backup files, but just in case, copy Proportions data files before installing my stuff.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:
No it is not hardcoded. Population level is in planetsize.txt, pop. modifiers and mass in settings.txt. If it was hardcoded, proportions would be impossible

Right, the only thing I was not sure about is the planetsize thing. I have done some tests with the original files:
1) I have not seen the AI problems with transports, well not yet. I have performed a quick AIcampaign test and saw the issue immediately "cannot load cargo..." and the transporters stuck in orbit
2) I have tested my idea below with 2,000,000 population at medium planets, original pop mass, pop modifier of settings.txt multiplied by 1,000. It works ! Even with the biggest number of the original settings.txt:

Pop Modifier 12 Population Amount := 2000000000
Pop Modifier 12 Production Modifier Percent := 200
Pop Modifier 12 SY Rate Modifier Percent := 200

Is there anything I have missed about it? Why has PvK not used this way instead of setting the pop mass to 1,000kT? Maybe a max. number problem with sphere worlds?

[oleg]

OK, here is a test save game:
1047582963.ZIP

You play as Xiati. Take over all AI and you will see the problem with Drushocka, praetorian, xi'chung, pequeninos. Reload the save game file, play for some number of turs, switch AI to you - same transports are still on orbit with AI swearing ! If you play longer, you can see the same problem with colony ships. And that's even worse problem !!

N.B. the game uses my data files I mentioned here before, Pequeninos AI is slightly modified as well.

[ March 13, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: oleg ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

quote:

---

Originally posted by oleg:
No it is not hardcoded. Population level is in planetsize.txt, pop. modifiers and mass in settings.txt. If it was hardcoded, proportions would be impossible

Right, the only thing I was not sure about is the planetsize thing. I have done some tests with the original files:
1) I have not seen the AI problems with transports, well not yet. I have performed a quick AIcampaign test and saw the issue immediately "cannot load cargo..." and the transporters stuck in orbit
2) I have tested my idea below with 2,000,000 population at medium planets, original pop mass, pop modifier of settings.txt multiplied by 1,000. It works ! Even with the biggest number of the original settings.txt:

Pop Modifier 12 Population Amount := 2000000000
Pop Modifier 12 Production Modifier Percent := 200
Pop Modifier 12 SY Rate Modifier Percent := 200

Is there anything I have missed about it? Why has PvK not used this way instead of setting the pop mass to 1,000kT? Maybe a max. number problem with sphere worlds?

---

Thanks ! You see, it is a BIG problem for AI. One reason PvK used current Proportion' settings is because this f... problem was not known. He wants population to be a special cargo, which requires special components, like starliner modules. Ans I totally agree with him. If only SE was not SO buggy even two years after release...

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:
He wants population to be a special cargo, which requires special components, like starliner modules. Ans I totally agree with him.

Small mistake of mine, it would be everything times 200 not 1,000.

But I still not get the point about starliners and such. What's the difference? You would have to carry 200 pop units instead of 1. This can be handled with starliners also and if you take every pop modifier x 200, and change things like clone centers accordingly it would make no difference to the current gameplay.