BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
But I still not get the point about starliners and such. What's the difference? You would have to carry 200 pop units instead of 1. This can be handled with starliners also and if you take every pop modifier x 200, and change things like clone centers accordingly it would make no difference to the current gameplay.[/QB]

Because it looks cool humans are not satellites after all, right ? Still this bug puzzles me. Simultaneous turns work perfectly allright, as well as when you play you race with all AI on. It is just simply a bug, Aaron should simply fix it. That' certainly better than turning the beatifull PvK' work upside down !

[PsychoTechFreak]

I agree with the bug. But it could be an improvement in some cases, e.g. finetuning of pop modifiers and such. I am going to give it a try and turn PvK's work "upside down", I am just curious how this would change gameplay and feel.
At least it would help the AI as we know yet... until it get's fixed.

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I agree with the bug. But it could be an improvement in some cases, e.g. finetuning of pop modifiers and such. I am going to give it a try and turn PvK's work "upside down", I am just curious how this would change gameplay and feel.
At least it would help the AI as we know yet... until it get's fixed.

But will it ? There are some well based rumors that 1.84 is the Last patch ever. MM is very busy with future projects and I certainly don't blame him. If only I had an access to source code I would likely nail this bug in no time, it's got to be pretty well localised in AI subroutines.

[PvK]

I think MM is still interested in important bugs in SE4. When he might release another patch though, I don't know. Do we think this is a new one from 1.84? Have we seen it in the unmodded game as well?

PvK

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by PvK:
I think MM is still interested in important bugs in SE4. When he might release another patch though, I don't know. Do we think this is a new one from 1.84? Have we seen it in the unmodded game as well?

PvK

I hope that MM fixes at least the annoying ship supply sucking bugs with fighters.

I don't think the topic one is new from 1.84, although I haven't tested yet. It looks like a problem just with heavy weight cargo involved, which should be no problem in the unmodded game unless the AI would not try to transport lots of weapon platforms or somesuch. We have not yet seen it in the unmodded game. I am going to change the pop weight back to 5kT, with an according change to all of the pop modifiers and planet size entries (x200). It will take a while... I expect the AI would work better with this workaround, but let's see...

[PsychoTechFreak]

PvK, I need some hints:

How to modify the following, in case of 200 pop units now would reflect 1 in proportions 2.5.3.1:

Population Defender Attack Strength := 3
Population Defender Hit Points := 100

Damage Points To Kill One Population := 200

And, because I think the scores would go up with 200 times the old populations:

AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True
AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 600
AI Human Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 400
AI Computer Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 500

Maximum Population For Abandon Planet Order := 50

Can I modify...
Reproduction Check Frequency := 10
... back to 1 and use 1/10th of the according pop grow factors (facilities and such). I doubt, because of 1% min., right? But would be nice.

Has anybody tried to change this one to "true" already, and does it work?:

Simultaneous Games Show Strategic Combat := False

[oleg]

Do NOT change "population growth check" ! It should stay the same as in normal Proportions. Not sure about other parameters. Ans do not forget to change Replicant centers in facility.txt or they will become a joke !

[PsychoTechFreak]

Setup is finally done, first investigations:
No AI transport problems so far, but it could be that it just occurs less often. Probably it is even a kind of calculation/rounding problem with the cargo values . The unmodded game has always round numbers from 150/200/250 components, this is different from proportions (e.g. 1004kT).

Cosmetic problem with this setup:
The population bar next to the planet is calculated by the old numbers, I mean 1000M/400B displays a full population bar.

Possible issue:
How does the AI really handle this, I mean, does it "consider" things like a 3750M/400B planet could be filled, don't send more transports and such.
Need some more experience with this setup. If somebody has got any ideas how to check the possible issues with any modifications to accelerate it - post it, please.

[ March 14, 2003, 18:29: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
PvK, I need some hints:

How to modify the following, in case of 200 pop units now would reflect 1 in proportions 2.5.3.1:

Population Defender Attack Strength := 3
Population Defender Hit Points := 100

If you want the same toughness of population, you'll need to divide both by the number you multiplied population by, which for 200 is impossible. Set both to 1 for the closest results. Militia will be twice as tough and have about 67 times as much firepower as before. That's probably not disastrous, though.

Damage Points To Kill One Population := 200

Same deal. Set to 1 for same toughness of population and facilities versus bombardments.

And, because I think the scores would go up with 200 times the old populations:

AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True
AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 600
AI Human Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 400
AI Computer Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 500

Not the whole scores, just the effect of population on scores, which isn't so big a deal. I wouldn't change this, at least until a clear effect was observed.

Maximum Population For Abandon Planet Order := 50

Multiply by 200.

Can I modify...
Reproduction Check Frequency := 10
... back to 1 and use 1/10th of the according pop grow factors (facilities and such). I doubt, because of 1% min., right? But would be nice.

You can, but it will bring back the unmodded population growth rate (except with less effect from the minimum growth). So, I would say you shouldn't, unless you want that.

Has anybody tried to change this one to "true" already, and does it work?:

Simultaneous Games Show Strategic Combat := False

Yes, it works, but what it does is show the game master the colored-dot zoom-out map of the tactical combat, zooming along at high speed, for every combat in the quadrant, even of aliens the human player hasn't met. It's fun to watch, but isn't something a player should see if they want to preserve fog of war. It has no effect on PBW or PBEM - it just shows dots fighting each other once during the turn resolution.

PvK

[PvK]

BTW, I asked oleg to do a test Last week of just increasing population capacities and effects by 10, and he said this seemed to work ok. 10 has the advantage over 200 that it keeps the numbers reasonable if read literally (that is, 40 billion is a reasonable homeworld population limit - 800 billion seems kind of extreme, as does 2 billion to get normal colony production).

I don't remember if oleg said this (x10) was solving this particular AI bug or not, though. oleg?

PvK