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[oleg]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
So? That is irrelevant. There is more to a 4X game than just the X's...

Yes, real time combat for example.

[Suicide Junkie]

Real time combat?

Combat in almost any form would do...

Besides, Fyron is one of the people who understand the difference between continuous combat simulation (good realtime), and literal "realtime" clickfest combat (bad realtime).

[ April 15, 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

Yeah, what SJ said. A game doesn't have to have real time combat to be 4X. SE4 is a 4X game. Do you see real time combat in it? Cause I certainly don't.

Of course, that was probably some lame attempt at sarcastic humor, but I'll just pretend it wasn't, for both our sakes.

[Lemmy]

By any general standard, GalCiv and other Civ-games are 4X games. They may not have as much micromanagement as SE or MOO, but they are still 4X games. But the 4X genre is large enough to have big differences in them.

[ April 15, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: Lemmy ]

[raynor]

With respect to the question of Gal Civ vs. Moo3, I just have one simple comment to make about MOO3:

They designed the game so that the real time combats go until they are finished or until 10 minutes have passed--whichever comes first. Let me just say that I had a TON of combats where they had to run the full TEN minutes.

Lots and lots of people will tell you many, many things about MOO3. I can't tell you yes or not on any of them. I found myself rebooting my computer to get out of MOO3 rather than wait 10 tedious minutes while two ships that couldn't hurt each other circled the screen staring at each other.

Until the developers make the 'General Retreat' work better or create some sort of acceleration feature, I would stay far, far away from MOO3.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
GalCiv is hardly comparable to SE4 or MOO3; it is not in the same genre. SE4 and MOO3 are 4X games, GalCiv is a Civilization-type game.

I dare to disagree .

MOO3 is not comparable to SE4 or even MOO2. It is a sim-type game. If you have fun playing SimCity or stuff like that, play SimGalaxy = MOO3.

If you are looking for a game where your actions have a significant influence on gameplay, where you are able to estimate what actions have what results, and where you want to be able to try out something even it it is considered a stupid mistake by the AI (but just may be a genius strategy not foreseen by the designers limited minds), FORGET MOO3. Well, someone will say "it's not a micromanagement game, its all about macromanagement" - nonsense. The most basic tools and overviews for macromanagement are missing. You have some very basic features to vaguely direct the AI, and most of your orders there aren't even taken into account if you do not correct them by manually micromanaging - and this is painful, because the game has been designed by haters of management of any kind. Normal playstyle: you watch, the AI does. Period. Enjoy your sitrep, press next turn.

On the other hand, if you enjoy watching the unfolding of a galactic empire, enjoy being able to look at the tinest detail of the whole economy even if you do not want to influence it, then MOO3 is definitely your game. Just do not expect a space strategy game.

[Fyron]

I will restate my comment, since the terms I have used have caused people to go off on irrelevant (to my point) tangents:

SE4, MOO3 and GalCiv are not games of the same class. Direct comparisons between them do not work because they are all different types of games. You wouldn't compare SE4 to Half-Life, would you?

[Wardad]

They are of the same GENRE...

eXplore
eXpand
eXploit
eXterminate

[Roanon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
SE4, MOO3 and GalCiv are not games of the same class.

Agreed I just couldn't let a comparison with MOO3/SE4 on one side and GalCiv on the other stand there. As you said yourself:

IMO, one of the major aspects of a 4X game is critical design decisions.

...and exactly these I'm missing in MOO3. You may have a few decisions, but not critical ones. Its like you are sitting in a rowboat tied to a supertanker. If you want to head in the same direction as the captain (=AI) of the tanker, fine, you will find that the tanker is actually helping you to reach your destination as fast and as efficient as possible. Just do not try to steer a different course...

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Wardad:
They are of the same GENRE...

That is why I said class... genre is too large a Category. They are also of the strategy genre. But you can't compare them absolutely as just strategy games.

Roanon:
MOO3 has the potential for critical design decisions, they just have to let you take it out of empire simulation mode. GalCiv, on the other hand, does not have that potential. Its units are static, noncustomizable.

[ April 16, 2003, 01:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]