Is "BattleCruiser" a relative size? -- discussion

[Soulfisher]

The default game defines "BattleCruiser" as 600 kt. Suppose that war ships were extended, in a mod, beyond the size of Baseships .... let's say to about 10,000 kt. Should the term "BattleCruiser" (or any other ship size "name") describe a relative size of ship instead of strictly a 600 kt size?

For example: If this mod had three small ship sizes of Escourt (200kt, tech level 1), BattleCruiser (600kt, tech level 2), and Baseship (1500kt, tech level 4), is it a desireable thing to also create a 700kt Escourt (just as fast and manueverable as the earlier Escourt, but at tech level 3), a 1700kt BattleCruiser (same speed and manueverability as the earlier BattleCruiser, but at tech level 5), and a 2000kt Baseship (also with the same speed and maneuverability as the earlier Baseship, but at tech level 6).

[trooper]

Mmm... your 700kt would make the battleship useless, if it's as fast (and cheap ?) as a small ship.
Theoricaly, you can make an Escort I hull size, an Escort II hull size and an Escort III hull size (need to use different names), no matter their weight.

[Fyron]

The sizes are completely relative. Check out Adamant Mod, which resized all the ships (and added a lot of new ones). Also, look for the Ultimate Vehicle Sizes mod (by Andres Lescano IIRC). It has huge ship sizes in it.

I doubt that you will find many (if any) on the other side of the argument (unless they play devil's advocate just to spite me ).

[ June 18, 2003, 08:06: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Rojero]

Speaking of battlecruiser, I found it interesting but the documentation a bit overwhelming or confusing, Do any of you guys have similiar views of the game?

[Growltigger]

Completely random post (kind of) but..... keeping in mind that battlecruisers (certainly in the British navy) were generally meant to be the definitive combination of firepower, armour and speed (and were generally more expensive than battleships)... I always thought that larger vessels in SEIV should be weighted so that they take much much much longer to build than smaller ships and also consume a dissproportionate amount of resources.

Modern fleets tend to have lots of small vessels with a few large battlewagons/carriers whatever. In SEIV, you generally go for the largest hull size you can build, and build as many as your empire will support....

Is there anyway to tweak things so that you are forced to go for a mix of smaller ships and then some big boys?

[Erax]

Sure. Every hull size has its own cost, which in standard SEIV is directly proportional to its size. You can tweak this to be proportional to the size squared or some such progression to make big ships reaaaaallllly expensive.

You can also tweak maintenance costs for specific hull sizes if you wish.

But remember, 'wet' navies are not a perfect analogy. Spacegoing vessels (especially the SEIV kind that never land on a planet) do not have to worry about drag and gravity as much as seagoing vessels.

[Suicide Junkie]

I like the idea of having the construction costs go up exponentially (size squared?), while firepower goes up linearly, and maintenance costs rise much slower (square root of size, perhaps)

This means you can pump out lots of firepower in a short amount of time by building tiny ships, but the maximum strength of your military will be limited.

In peacetime, you can spend lots of time and initial resources to build large hulls. With the lower maintenance percentages, you can get much more military strength built up before maintenance starts to crunch your economy.

Medium sized ships would be for those unsure about the political climate, with intermediate strength per maintenance dollar, and intermediate build times.

I think this would make for a very interesting game, with a variety of ship sizes being fielded.

[Thermodyne]

The descriptive terms used with cruisers do not refer directly to the size of the ship. The size reference is the size of the main armament, which was mirrored by the hull displacement in most but not all ships. Cruisers in general are long ranging self-sufficient ships. The original intent was to project the might of the British fleet into the far-flung reaches of the Empire. To do this, the ship needed to be able to operate for long periods without the company of a fuel reefer. And it needed to be gunned so as to be able to deal with the locals. They also tended to have good communications gear and many had luxury accommodations. Many U.S. flagships were cruisers. Light cruisers carried 4” or 5” main guns. Mediums were equipped with 6” guns for the most part and heavies carried 8” guns. Battle Cruisers were built with 10 to 15 inch guns just like battle ships but without the armor. The first battle cruisers were cost saving designs, the idea being that speed would negate the need for armor. Jutland disproved this, in large part because the cruisers were required to keep formation with the slower battlewagons. After WW I, the Washington Navy treaty killed off most of the BC’s then under construction. The US converted their unfinished hulls into carriers, which turned into a rather large stroke of blind luck. During WW II, cruisers tended to be built around secondary requirements. Some light cruisers displaced as much weight as large medium cruisers, the added mass being made up of cargo storage. Today, US cruisers are classified without the descriptive size. They displace the weight of an old medium cruiser, but have little armor and no large guns. This makes them appear to be very large. Today’s cruisers can reach out and hit very hard, but would be quickly disabled if they got into a gun only fight. It would be interesting to see a match up between an Aegis and an old battlewagon. Harpoons would be hard pressed against 10+ inch navel armor, but one 16-inch shell could break the back of an Aegis. The SLCM’s would probably be another story, they would probably be able to end the fight before the big guns came into range.

[Erax]

Interesting ideas SJ. I suggest we call it the 'battle cruiser' mod idea, after this thread's initial topic.

Edit : and make it Neo Standard ++ so we can have more intermediate ship sizes.

[ June 18, 2003, 19:58: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

[PvK]

See Proportions mod for larger ships that get more and more expensive, with various other reasons to have some smaller ships, and to mothball expensive ones during peace time.

PvK