A quick question about Man

[Pocus]

He is only death 1. Try to play it and you will see that he dont performs that well. each spell cast fatigue him, and he wont be able to raise many deads anyway (or you have to give him gems and or skull staff, which rise the cost drastically).

There is another magic user assassin, the star spawn (Rlyeh).

I find Ctis weak because it was easy to ward against poison in dominions I, and because except the swamp guards, which is only capitol based, their infantry are seriously behind the others.

[Zerger]

Originally posted by Pocus:

I find Ctis weak because it was easy to ward against poison in dominions I, and because except the swamp guards, which is only capitol based, their infantry are seriously behind the others.

Period.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Zerger:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pocus:

I find Ctis weak because it was easy to ward against poison in dominions I, and because except the swamp guards, which is only capitol based, their infantry are seriously behind the others.

Period.

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but in fact not only for that
in case somebody is still not convinced :

- their sauromancers cost 180 gp (normal cost of many 'big' national mages), *but* they are only 3-1-? where as the others are 3-2-?

- they are all cold blooded, and it is nearly impossible for Ctis to warm up the battlefield (heat from hell : forget about it), or even worse a province (you need a global to do that!), whereas it is rather easy to winterize a province with wolven winter. Result : you have no counter against the big fatigue hit you will take when fighting in cold, like against Ermor, Caelum, etc.

- their priests are perhaps powerful, but as costly as others. The 30 gp one isnt worthy of anything because he is mainly an indep priest *without* any leadership The Serpent King has a description which doesnt fit with what he does : would you really invest 280 gp into a 17 hp combatting leader? So he will only be used as priest. For 100 gp more I get an Arch Theurg with 7 (or is it 8) levels of magic!

the list can goes one. These lizards desserve a big boost in doms II Seems that they are helped a bit, so we will see how it turns.

[st.patrik]

Erm, the info on themes for C'Tis was interesting - it sounds cool - but could anyone answer my original question? Does Man still have as many unit types only recruitable in their home province as in Dom I?

[johan osterman]

I think you are overstating your case, Sauromancers are not as expensive as mages with 3 2 1 magic. Crone of Avalon 230, Skratti 250 (2 2 1), Granmdaster 250, Abysian warlock 270. Pandemoniac 3 2 320. Now some of these have special abilities or more hitpoints then your average mage, but still I think their costs show that the sauromancer has a competetive price, and unlike the warlock or the crone sauromancer are recruitable outside your home province.

The national mages with comparable skill and cost are Caelian high seraphs with 3 2 1 for 175gp and deep seers with 3 2 for 180. The caelian high seraph is the most cost effective purchasable mage there is, so as long as you do not compare the Sauromancers cost with the high seraph, I think he holds his own.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Erm, the info on themes for C'Tis was interesting - it sounds cool - but could anyone answer my original question? Does Man still have as many unit types only recruitable in their home province as in Dom I?

As far as I recall the basic theme is unchanged. You requested knights of avalon recruitable outside Man, but the knights of Man are more costeffective in most if not all circumstances.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I think you are overstating your case, Sauromancers are not as expensive as mages with 3 2 1 magic. Crone of Avalon 230, Skratti 250 (2 2 1), Granmdaster 250, Abysian warlock 270. Pandemoniac 3 2 320. Now some of these have special abilities or more hitpoints then your average mage, but still I think their costs show that the sauromancer has a competetive price, and unlike the warlock or the crone sauromancer are recruitable outside your home province.

The national mages with comparable skill and cost are Caelian high seraphs with 3 2 1 for 175gp and deep seers with 3 2 for 180. The caelian high seraph is the most cost effective purchasable mage there is, so as long as you do not compare the Sauromancers cost with the high seraph, I think he holds his own.

Yes you are right, in the sense that I had mainly in mind High Seraph of uber Caelum, or more costlier mages but with special abilities (Grand Master are priests, Pandemoniac & Skratti are very tough) when I compared the Sauromancer.

I suppose it means that you are balancing units costs not on a one to one basis, but overall to a nation, as there is no arguments why a warlock would cost 270 gp and a high seraph only 175.

I will stop arguing because game balancing always lead to endless debates. (for example what is so weak in Caelum that they need to have cheap mages to balance things out?).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:

I find Ctis weak because it was easy to ward against poison in dominions I, and because except the swamp guards, which is only capitol based, their infantry are seriously behind the others.

Elite warriors are pretty good IMO, can be raised in masses because of their low resource cost, and can be produced everywhere.

- their sauromancers cost 180 gp (normal cost of many 'big' national mages), *but* they are only 3-1-? where as the others are 3-2-?

I fully agree with JO's analysis on this.

- they are all cold blooded, and it is nearly impossible for Ctis to warm up the battlefield (heat from hell : forget about it), or even worse a province (you need a global to do that!), whereas it is rather easy to winterize a province with wolven winter. Result : you have no counter against the big fatigue hit you will take when fighting in cold, like against Ermor, Caelum, etc.

You mean, no counter *early* - Enchantment research is a big priority for C'tis, because of all these reanimation spells, ant it gives you Relief as well (better used by communion-leading shamen - with 2 masters and 4 slaves, fatigue isn't a concern anymore).

And even if their masters do suffer from cold, don't forget their undead creatures are immune to cold effects. If Caelum is a problem, retaliate with spectres, ghosts, behemoths, and hordes of lesser undeads ;-)

- their priests are perhaps powerful, but as costly as others. The 30 gp one isnt worthy of anything because he is mainly an indep priest *without* any leadership The Serpent King has a description which doesnt fit with what he does : would you really invest 280 gp into a 17 hp combatting leader?

I do. 17 hp isn't much, but at least that's enough to survive a Seeking Arrow or FFTS or MW, in my experience anyway. And they have an impressive leadership rating, which is good to keep the low morale lizards in line.

So he will only be used as priest. For 100 gp more I get an Arch Theurg with 7 (or is it 8) levels of magic!

I don't like the priest-mages much anyway. I want my big priests to stick to Fanaticism (especially with C'tis ;-)

the list can goes one. These lizards desserve a big boost in doms II

I'd say they're slightly below average. Ermor is much weaker in MP IMO.

[ October 02, 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[ywl]

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:

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Originally posted by st.patrik:
Erm, the info on themes for C'Tis was interesting - it sounds cool - but could anyone answer my original question? Does Man still have as many unit types only recruitable in their home province as in Dom I?

As far as I recall the basic theme is unchanged. You requested knights of avalon recruitable outside Man, but the knights of Man are more costeffective in most if not all circumstances.

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I have not found Man's capital-only problem too serious though it's probably because I've played mostly on smaller map. One castle to produce national mages, and occasional a few others for some indie mages, is usually enough.

One quick and thematic fix for this complaint would be to let Man recruit Druids (in additional to Bards) everywhere. I know that Druids are very versatile and useful units - not sure how it will affect game balance though.

[Pocus]

Elite warriors are pretty good IMO, can be raised in masses because of their low resource cost, and can be produced everywhere.

They are costly, and suffer from a very low protection. Sure they pack quite some punch, and have good morale, but they are very frail. If you have no gold problem, then I understand that they are better than any other troops that Ctis can field, with perhaps swamp guards with reliefs from time to time.
Anyway, I dont like them much, because when I play C'tis, it bother me to recruit only savage lizards, whereas you are supposed to reign over a nation of Lizardmen. See you have 4 (or is 5) subtypes of lizardmen troops, and you would rely mostly, if not exclusively on the elite warriors? It talks about how the lizardmen are under balanced.

- their sauromancers cost 180 gp (normal cost of many 'big' national mages), *but* they are only 3-1-? where as the others are 3-2-?

NGF :
I fully agree with JO's analysis on this

Ok, they are average and not particularly bad. I must have the bad habit to compare things to Caelum, which generally add insult to injury with his better troops.

{cold provinces and extra fatigue}
You mean, no counter *early* - Enchantment research is a big priority for C'tis, because of all these reanimation spells, ant it gives you Relief as well (better used by communion-leading shamen - with 2 masters and 4 slaves, fatigue isn't a concern anymore).

And even if their masters do suffer from cold, don't forget their undead creatures are immune to cold effects. If Caelum is a problem, retaliate with spectres, ghosts, behemoths, and hordes of lesser undeads ;-)

How you goes to discard that easily the problem! For relief you need nature 3. Simple, I *just* have to field 5 shamen. So fool I'm to not have my bag of dessicated shamen with me, everywhere I go, with any forces, even medium to small ones. Promised, I wont do twice the error

Ok granted, for big battles you have the shamen. Just check what will happen after the fifth round? Last time I checked, AI seldomly if never cast relief, and revert to howl. Then the fatigue hit, and starting with round 8, the penalties on your units are pretty severe.

My point is the battle of cold versus heat is largely dominated by cold, because of this handy wolven winter. And with Cold blood, C'tis is even in worse shape than any other nation. Even if you manage to have an ample suply of death gems, I dont think that all your units will be summoned ones. You will have Ctissian mages and lizardmen, and they will be crap soon in cold.

{lizard king}

I do. 17 hp isn't much, but at least that's enough to survive a Seeking Arrow or FFTS or MW, in my experience anyway. And they have an impressive leadership rating, which is good to keep the low morale lizards in line

I reckon that the 17 hp are handy for those arrows. Aside that you pay a level 4 priest for 280 gold. Seems overpriced to me. Can I remind you that Marignon has a level 4 priest, fire 1 magic user for 210 gold?

don't like the priest-mages much anyway. I want my big priests to stick to Fanaticism (especially with C'tis ;-)

I agree with you that priest mages always seem to cast the wrong spell Still I find the Ctissian priest costly for a nation which is supposed to be very good at that.
I notice that the Hierodule did not appeal comments from you.

You just have to admit that more than half of the units or leaders are underpowered, and I promise that we will find some time for this Marignon/Arco duel

oops sniped the Ermorian part... Have you played against Ermor commanded by Wendigo (Pepe M.). I think you would change your mind about Ermor.