Dom I Strategies which WON'T work in Dom II

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pocus:
Murdering winter is level 7, that's easily reachable. With some water income, you can have a big reserve when you can cast it. Sure, you wont see many of these spells cast in small to medium games, or games ending at turn 50, but otherwise they are really detrimental to the gameplay (in the experience of our group).

Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it!

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the demons&devils commanders are now limited in number in doms II (as the elemental kings and queens), so at least this abuse will be fixed. It wont change much how much murdering winter can be used anyway (the Caelian player I mention never recruited ice devils, but still managed to cast something like 10 MW - each time you gather a sizable force to counter him, bLast, you were back to stone age, very frustrating).

I wonder who really appreciate these spells, (gameplay wise not power wise). Alex Poger gave his opinion, but I would like to hear some MP vets like Wendigo, YWL, Sunray, etc.

[Endoperez]

I have a question about the greater wards, those that take longer to research and which offer full protection. Do they give full protection, or something like 90% resistance, which added to the normal ward would offer immunity?
And how powerful wizard do you need for these spells? Atleast both need gems.

Just came to my mind, and would like to check this out.

[Zerger]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mortifer:
Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.

I typically play multiplayer, and modding individual aspects that don't fit my taste isn't really a viable option.

Besides, I don't have time to do the balancing necessary to make a good mod of Dominions.[/QB]

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Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must be!]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Zerger:
Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must be

it is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells. Something like 40 to 50% of the people here (according to two polls) play MP. It would be far better to have a common set of rules accepted in this case.

In solo you will encounter the problem too with most of the scenarios, if modding tools are allowed. The scenario author will have surely modded some particular aspects of doms, to better fit the setting of the map. Thus you will have to play with his mod, not your.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
it is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells.

Although I too think these spells are a bit too potent for my comfort, in my own games MW/FFTS abuse did little to alter the balance of power, as when a side starts using them the opposition isn't long to reply with weapons of the same caliber. At the very least it seems everyone is Leprosy-capable at some point.

On the contrary I've sometimes seen an overwhelmingly dominant faction being leveled to reasonable size by a coalition of weaker, but more numerous nations (with a bigger gem income) - and I'd say that's a rather good thing.

In any case, since game balance is really only an issue in MP, the players can always vote to ban these rituals or restrict their use.

Re: the "dispatch the offending mage with VOTD" - in my experience the offender is more often than not an Ice Devil, thus undead, thus unaffected by VOTD.

[Patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:

I have heard that blood hunting has been altered somewhat, and that the large blood summons will be handled differently in Dom II.

Perhaps some of the testers could enlighten us about the way it works now.[/QB]

I brought this subject up a few months ago in the newsgroup, but it seems I have to repeat a few things, mainly concerning blood hunting/blood summonings.

Blood hunting has been nerfed by not adding any bonuses for the dousing rods to commanders without skill in blood. Even for nations with cheap blood mages (Mictlan), it makes hunting more expensive.

There are six different Ice Devils, 55 slaves apiece. They are more cold dependent (+/- 2 per temperature change) and don't automatically generate gems anymore.

IIRC, there are five Arch Devils, four Heliophages and one Father Illearth. The Pazuzu (sp?) is now one of the Demon Lords (lvl 9).

As for army-bLasting spells, I personally try to counter them by switching to raiding warfare (with small forces) until I can build a large enough resistant army. With the introduction of seasons in DomII, I hope they will have enough of an impact to make it worthwile to campaign in the summer season against cold enemies, and vice versa against hot ones. I am not sure how much the seasons will affect the army-bLasting spells though.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Jasper:
This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it![/QB]

Err, just 2 now, I already killed the 3rd one.

I am the one who just bLasted Jasper's sieging force with a MW, (feel the wrath of the true God you infidel!), so, by references & seeing as Pocus also asked for my opinion, here it goes:

I have mixed feelings regarding the army bLasters, I recon they are both powerful & flexible due to their nº of hits being % based on the size of the targetted army & the abilty to strike from afar, I do however disagree with the point about them being particularly unbalanced when compared to the many other cost-effective aspects/combos/etc of the game. They are just another tool, and they are counterable.

In Jasper's case he spent like 200 or so waters empowering his Nataraja in water & summoning a couple Sea Kings with their retinues, those gems could have been spent in protection gear for his mages & cold resistant troops for example, which might -or not- have been a better option...everything has a trade-off in this game: he made his choice (in a game with a 3 cold Caelum, a 3! cold Jotunheim & a 1 cold Vanheim), I spotted his weak point & took advantage of it. In his discharge it must be said that he's been playing a brilliant game until present and he still has chances to win seeing as I am outsized by my 2 enemies...I only really have a broader experience in endgame warfare to face them, and that might not be enough after all.

FFS comes very late in the game. Leprosy has a slow effect & the diseasing can be ignored by some & cured by others. Murdering winter is weather dependant. The bLasters have their counters & balancing points: resistances, hit points, domes, weather, cures, killing the caster....

One particular point in favour of the army bLasters is that they are one of the few options vs the armies that consist in an horde of mages supported by relief & communion. How should a player that is outclassed in these points face that kind of army otherwise?

By limiting MW we would be affecting the balance between the nations strongly, and downing even more a magic field (water), that is considered by many one of the weakest. IN Dom I IMO Air rules the mid game, while Astral & Blood rule the end game, certainly not Water.
While Caelum could certainly take a little balancing this would be the first time I heard that Jotunheim is too powerful...this is a nation with no proficiency in 3 out of 4 elemental magics, outclassed in Astral by the big Astral nations regarding its combat mages & with huge survival needs.

While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

If I had to name the most decisive/unbalancing factors of the game in Dom I MP I would name the following:

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar

[ October 16, 2003, 11:22: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Patrik]

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar[/QB][/quote]

[Patrik]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Patrik:
Summoners: Battlefield summons (for example lesser elementals and Howl) now cost gems. This will address the relief/summoning combo.

this will adress the power of Howl, but wont change anything about relief, as Wendigo pointed it. With 3 druids, you basically suppress the fatigues incurred by your mages during the 5 first rounds. Dont appears very balanced too me, for a 0 gem spell.

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Wendigo said

Originally posted by Wendigo:
4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief.

Relief combined with gemfree summonings was truly abusive, when those are gone relief will still be powerful, but less so. Maybe relief should be area restricted, but IMHO Nature magic needs this spell to be competitive.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The order scale has been rescaled to since you Last participated in a beta MP, it is 7% per step now. The growth and production give a 2% income bonus per step.

Why would you spend 120 points on production for a 6% increase in income? Does it have some other effect?