still at loss in understanding this...

Pocus · #1 January 24th, 2004, 03:43 PM

Well I dont know if its a feature or a bug, or whatever, but frankly I dont understand when are supposed to fire a mix of legionaries units with javelins. I just had again the example of a group of principes who refused to fire their javelin during 3 rounds( 50% of the troops engaged, and 50% just a tile behind doing nothing), and then all the sudden they fired javelins upon javelins until they had none left.

I'm not even speaking of mixing 2 kind of javelins units, none will fire, except once in a blue moon.

Seems totally random behavior, to the point where I ask if there is not a bug somewhere in a formula!

Nagot Gick Fel · #2 January 24th, 2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
I just had again the example of a group of principes who refused to fire their javelin during 3 rounds( 50% of the troops engaged, and 50% just a tile behind doing nothing), and then all the sudden they fired javelins upon javelins until they had none left.

Happens sometimes, but there's always a reason for this (at least, when it happened to me I always found one eventually, by looking at the VCR carefully).

Typical example:

..........................................
....P..............................F......
..............................S...........
..........................................

P = your principes
S = slow enemy squad
F = fast enemy squad

Now assume P is ordered to 'fire at closest'. P will lock on S, and will do its best to move within shooting range of S, engaging any enemy that comes in the path in hand-to-hand combat.

Result:

..........................................
..............PF..........................
......................S...................
..........................................

F, being faster, outpaced S and engaged P before P could come within shooting range to fire its javelins at S.

Now, assume for some reason, S routs - a routing enemy isn't considered as a valid target anymore if there are other non-routing enemy units on the field. As soon as it happens, P will select a new non-routing target (eg, F), and since its orders were 'fire' orders, it will be able to use its javelins again, since F is within shooting range.

That's just an example - there are many variants on this theme. Eg, if you give 'fire at archers' and there's an non-archer enemy unit in the way.

[ January 24, 2004, 15:01: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Pocus · #3 January 24th, 2004, 06:04 PM

mmh, and so do you think that its normal that half of the group (the unengaged part) sit iddly in the rear of the formation (with 3 javelins still unused), and watch their comrades die in melee, without using their javelin? We know that its surely not the fear of doing some losses by friendly fire that can motivate them in doing nothing

so why are they sitting on the grass?

They are in range yes, they have javelins. They dont use it. They wait, and wait and wait. If the enemy finally rout, the whole formation resume the pursuit, and can fire (somehow). Otherwise they just fill the ranks of the killed. Dont make sense.

Raz 24 · #4 January 24th, 2004, 06:08 PM

Seriously I think if your idle jevelin Users would fire they would kill more of you troops than theirs

Nagot Gick Fel · #5 January 24th, 2004, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
mmh, and so do you think that its normal that half of the group (the unengaged part) sit iddly in the rear of the formation (with 3 javelins still unused), and watch their comrades die in melee, without using their javelin?

Maybe not "normal" (as in real life), but if their comrades are meleing unit F while the whole squad was ordered to fire at S, and S is out of range, it's certainly understandable - from a programmatic POV.

Graeme Dice · #6 January 24th, 2004, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
We know that its surely not the fear of doing some losses by friendly fire that can motivate them in doing nothing

so why are they sitting on the grass?

It likely is this. One addition to the battle AI in Dom2 is that it's much more careful about choosing targets that won't cause as many friendly fire problems as in dom 1. The devs have commented on this occasionally.

PDF · #7 January 24th, 2004, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by Pocus:
We know that its surely not the fear of doing some losses by friendly fire that can motivate them in doing nothing so why are they sitting on the grass?

It likely is this. One addition to the battle AI in Dom2 is that it's much more careful about choosing targets that won't cause as many friendly fire problems as in dom 1. The devs have commented on this occasionally.

Herrr, on that point issue is still there : my Ulm crossbowmen just shot in the back Raterik their leader (with Fire sword, Elem Armor, Charcoal Shield, and even Bracers of Prot...)

!!!!
And don't tell me that's normal, he was giving the Last blows to a half dozen enemy archers, with the rest of their army already routed !!!

PhilD · #8 January 25th, 2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PDF:

quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by Pocus:
We know that its surely not the fear of doing some losses by friendly fire that can motivate them in doing nothing so why are they sitting on the grass?

It likely is this. One addition to the battle AI in Dom2 is that it's much more careful about choosing targets that won't cause as many friendly fire problems as in dom 1. The devs have commented on this occasionally.
Herrr, on that point issue is still there : my Ulm crossbowmen just shot in the back Raterik their leader (with Fire sword, Elem Armor, Charcoal Shield, and even Bracers of Prot...) !!!!
And don't tell me that's normal, he was giving the Last blows to a half dozen enemy archers, with the rest of their army already routed !!!

Obviously, it's hard for the AI to decide when something it worth the risk of friendly fire.

I'd understand the request for "don't fire at a routing enemy if there are friendly units within X squares", but in what you're describing, Raterik had technically not routed the enemy yet, so his standing orders of "fire at the bastards until they rout" were still good. From what I've heard of the Ulmish military code, disobeying orders can get you in no end of trouble, but there's no provisions for accidental friendly fire - they were playing smart...

Norfleet · #9 January 25th, 2004, 04:40 AM

We in the military call this a "Fragging". It happens to leaders who are overly gung-ho. In the middle of the night, the men will arrange to have a hand-grenade rolled into your tent, since your antics are considered to severely reduce their odds of survival.

I'm sure that this is the Ulmish Version of a fragging.

OG_Gleep · #10 January 25th, 2004, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PDF:
Herrr, on that point issue is still there : my Ulm crossbowmen just shot in the back Raterik their leader (with Fire sword, Elem Armor, Charcoal Shield, and even Bracers of Prot...) !!!!
And don't tell me that's normal, he was giving the Last blows to a half dozen enemy archers, with the rest of their army already routed !!!

I had a Troll Lord decked out with Asterik's Armor (the golden artifact one), Champion's Trident (he just and I mean JUST won the dang thing), a spirit helment, and a couple of misc stuff, can't remember. I had a wraith sword on him before he won the tourney, and forgot to change his orders and he rushed and routed the entire enemy infantry squads (about 60) by himself and had 5 hp left and he had just routed the Last squad when a volley of xbows from my fearless, and apparently blind Ulmish Xbow squad. I still weep late at night.

[ January 25, 2004, 05:59: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]