Golden Era Discussion

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Did anyone try mixing chariots with bows and peltasts?

Originally posted by Daynarr:
I was usually using stacks of 8-15 riders accompanied by 1 commander (filled with items).
You can target archers with them as well. Basically I would usually give them hold and attack enemy archers or hold and attack rearmost units order. That way most of heavy infantry troops would move forward and away from shooters which would get killed or routed as soon as my riders move in. If you can't kill or rout those archers fast they you are probably attacking too large force.

So you use them for the equivilant of a Caelum Drop Squad (3 Mages and some Guards).

Unfortunately in my experiments even if you only pick up 10, (1250g) and a decently equipped commander they don't stack up very well.

Though you may be right, usually a core of ~30 archers will kill them.

They aren’t a force to single handedly take out enemy main armies, but to harass enemy territories while your main armies push forward. The thing is that enemy must catch them with significant force if he hopes to take them out which is very difficult in both MP and SP games.

Of course not, but a good comparison for them would be Valkyries, or would you disagree?

Valk
60 Gold 12 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 13
Morale 12
MR 14
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 13
Def 15
Prec 13
Mv 3/11
Stealth +25, Flying, Glamour, Sacred
Spear, Chain Mail Curiass, Helmet, Round Shield

Wind Rider
125 Gold 35 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 17
Morale 14
MR 12
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 12
Def 16
Prec 10
Mv 3/22
Flying, Sacred
Lance, Spear, Hoof, Bronze Hauberk, Full Helmet, Round Shield

Did I miss something or were the positive changes (In Bold) worth double the resources and gold cost of the unit? The ones in italic are the ones that are negative from the Valkyrie.

I agree it should be more expensive, but I don't know if quite to that extreme.

Edit:

And Wind Guide and Archers works on "Fire Fliers" like a charm. Even while they are waiting to charge. More significant with Flaming Arrows (common) or xbows (common).

[ February 17, 2004, 09:31: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Daynarr]

So you use them for the equivilant of a Caelum Drop Squad (3 Mages and some Guards).

That is exactly it! Same tactic I would use as Caelum. Only with Arco I get much more ground troop choices/power.

Of course not, but a good comparison for them would be Valkyries, or would you disagree?

Valk
60 Gold 12 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 13
Morale 12
MR 14
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 13
Def 15
Prec 13
Mv 3/11
Stealth +25, Flying, Glamour, Sacred
Spear, Chain Mail Curiass, Helmet, Round Shield

Wind Rider
125 Gold 35 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 17
Morale 14
MR 12
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 12
Def 16
Prec 10
Mv 3/22
Flying, Sacred
Lance, Spear, Hoof, Bronze Hauberk, Full Helmet, Round Shield

Did I miss something or were the positive changes (In Bold) worth double the resources and gold cost of the unit? The ones in italic are the ones that are negative from the Valkyrie.

I agree it should be more expensive, but I don't know if quite to that extreme.

Well, the difference in protection is not so small (difference between light and medium infantry) so it justifies resource difference. They do get initial powerfull strike with lances which makes them much more devastating on their first attack comparing to Valkyries although Valkyries have glamour that gives them sort of 'mirror image' protection.
It's quite valid question and I'm not sure if they really should cost so much if you compare these units alone, but I think developers took into account overall unit strength for both nations. If you compare what Arco and Vanheim have at their disposal you will see that Arco has significant advantage in choices/power comparing to Vanheim in both magic and 'might' (most of them I already mentioned in initial post). It’s probably a global picture where Vanheim is given advantage of making more cheaper sacred units to make up for other disadvantages. I do believe that giving Wind Riders cost less then 100 gold would make it unbalancing - that protection and powerful first strike is significant factor and if Arco is allowed to build Riders in great numbers they could simply overwhelm large armies.

Edit:

And Wind Guide and Archers works on "Fire Fliers" like a charm. Even while they are waiting to charge. More significant with Flaming Arrows (common) or xbows (common).

You will not use Riders to attack that force so I assume your Riders will get attacked.
That requires that enemy gets both fire and air mages to attack them and bring a significant force of archers/crossbows with them. Like I said, not easy to do since they will rarely stay still in same province and as flyers they have lots of optional destinations.
Additionally, you can bring a wind mage of your own with them to cast Arrow Fend on your archers and solve the problem (if Riders are defending they get to do it first!).

[ February 17, 2004, 10:07: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Hmm. 17 over 14 protection, not enough to really mean anything in the face of crossbows, certainly not magically boosted ones, though nice in extended melee combat.

On the other hand, the lance attack is a significant advantage, when using massed wind lords, as it is an almost guaranteed kill in the first combat round for each wind lord against most opposition. Good for clearing some space.

If I were a 1-1 comparison with the Valkyrie, I would probably still come down on the "too expensive for the benefits" side. However, since I ought to be comparing entire themes rather than individual units, I will not do so.

With their relatively high cost, they look to me to be more to fit a role as support units used in conjunction with, e.g., massed Icarii, for a rapid reaction force with extra punch, or as a heavy flyer component with hold-hold-hold-attack rear in an infantry/chariot heavy army.

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Well, the difference in protection is not so small (difference between light and medium infantry) so it justifies resource difference. They do get initial powerfull strike with lances which makes them much more devastating on their first attack comparing to Valkyries although Valkyries have glamour that gives them sort of 'mirror image' protection.
It's quite valid question and I'm not sure if they really should cost so much if you compare these units alone, but I think developers took into account overall unit strength for both nations.

I agree totally. Vanheim has +5 Berserking Units, Vans, Javalin Units, a decent HI unit, powerful Earth Mages, Powerful (but expensive) Air Mages, Stealth Option, Sailing, Minor Blood Ability, Regenerating Shapeshifter ... etc.

If you compare what Arco and Vanheim have at their disposal you will see that Arco has significant advantage in choices/power comparing to Vanheim in both magic and 'might' (most of them I already mentioned in initial post). It’s probably a global picture where Vanheim is given advantage of making more cheaper sacred units to make up for other disadvantages. I do believe that giving Wind Riders cost less then 100 gold would make it unbalancing - that protection and powerful first strike is significant factor and if Arco is allowed to build Riders in great numbers they could simply overwhelm large armies.

This is where I disagree. I don't think this particular theme of Arco (even losing their Elephants and getting the Chariots instead) is drastically overpowered to Base Vanheim (even if you adjust the Pegasi), I actually consider them on equal footing.

It has no hoplites, it has no hypsists, it has no elephants, it has no Astrologers (thus making less of a Astral killer and Gateway nation). The forced sloth creates a sort of imposed balance of production that Vanheim doesn't have. The Mystics are more versitile but I consider the magics between them to be fairly equal. Better research with this Arco in the Philosopher, neat ability in the Skeptic, and interesting potential with the Engineer.

I wouldn't say drop the price comparable to Valkyries, but not at 125 Gold. They already have a Dominion Requirement (High Dominion to create more per turn) and a high resource requirement (I doubt you'll run out of resources before money).

Even at 100 Gold it would make them 1/5 cheaper and still make them a significant investment. 125 is just too much even for making your own little shotgun squad.

You will not use Riders to attack that force so I assume your Riders will get attacked.
That requires that enemy gets both fire and air mages to attack them and bring a significant force of archers/crossbows with them. Like I said, not easy to do since they will rarely stay still in same province and as flyers they have lots of optional destinations.
Additionally, you can bring a wind mage of your own with them to cast Arrow Fend on your archers and solve the problem (if Riders are defending they get to do it first!).

I was trying to illustrate how fragile, especially in the early game, that your force of high priced superblessed Wind Riders could be easily killed by a bad choice or significant forces. You could easily buy 120 Archers for the same it would cost you 10 Wind Riders. I'd assume most know that there are no one tactic that will beat another because of the game ;P An easy enough way to kill Wind Riders would be to just use a Wrathful Skies combo on them, or teleport/trapeze a SC on top of them. But that doesn't mean they are useless, only that there are counters to everything.

[ February 17, 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Zen:
I just tested using Skeptics (Yes I prefer the classic spelling).

While the army may or may not have it's benefits or pains, but the Skeptics definintely fill a much needed role. About 4 Skeptics will tear down a 6 Dominion in a temple/prophet province in 2 turns and drop it to 0. A few more Skeptics in outlying provinces and a decent army and suddenly it's not a war of magic, or armies, but of keeping you dominion. Unfortunately with the easy access to patrolling and it's sheer effectiveness against Stealthy +0 units, they won't see the light of day in MP unless there is a +Stealth item you could equip them with.

I would use them mostly to break a dominions wall (high dominions levels are very nasty to bring down), by sending a distant spell summon, like call horror, hords from hell, arouse hunger, to kill the PD whilst I move the septiks into the province.

[Daynarr]

I agree totally. Vanheim has +5 Berserking Units, Vans, Javalin Units, a decent HI unit, powerful Earth Mages, Powerful (but expensive) Air Mages, Stealth Option, Sailing, Minor Blood Ability, Regenerating Shapeshifter ... etc.

I am assuming you wrote those as advantage.

Javelins and stealth are available to both nations so its not really advantage.
Blood is hardly an option since all blood 1 mages they can buy are VERY costly (280 and 380 gold). I seriously doubt that few mages you can afford for Vanheim would be used smartly to capture few blood slaves each turn instead of leading armies, searching, researching and casting rituals.
HI of Vanheim is nothing to write home about. They are basically on the same level as HI you can buy from independent provinces. Wouldn’t call that advantage.
Flying is clearly more superior to Sailing ability.

This is where I disagree. I don't think this particular theme of Arco (even losing their Elephants and getting the Chariots instead) is drastically overpowered to Base Vanheim (even if you adjust the Pegasi), I actually consider them on equal footing.

Vanheim is limited to Air and Earth in main theme and requires significant gold to make enough mages to cover other paths of magic (mages get only 1 random pick and cost a LOT with the exception of Dwarven Smiths). Compare that to Mystic who gets 2 astral + 3 random picks for a price comparable to smith (180 gold). Add to that fact that Astral is better and more versatile choice then is Earth or Air (which Arco also gets. In fact they get Earth and Air gems at the start) if nothing else to paralyze, mind burn, enslave, destroy undead, dispel enhancements (I wouldn't wonna be Vanheim when BoT is cast), buff troops (Body Ethereal is nice on Wind Riders), find ALL magic sites, ... and see what Vanheim is missing. I would hardly call that even.

OTOH Priestess are enough to tip the scale in favor of Arco alone. The fact that you can heal your troops, get level 3 priests, and nature support mage for only 110 gold will SAVE you a lot of gold playing Arco. While Vanheim troops get afflictions in battle and become more useful as meat shield you can heal your own troops and save a lot of money that way. They shine mostly when BoT is cast or fighting against Miasma. Bare in mind that no other nation has access to healing troops like Arco has.

So, to sum it up, we can agree to disagree as I stand in my view that making Wind Riders cheaper would make Arco unbalancing overall.

EDIT: typos.

[ February 17, 2004, 13:34: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Javelins and stealth are available to both nations so its not really advantage.

Where does Arco have Stealth Troops? They have stealth commanders, but I don't quite see their stealth troops. Or do you not consider stealth Vans and Valks to be any sort of advantage.

Blood is hardly an option since all blood 1 mages they can buy are VERY costly (280 and 380 gold). I seriously doubt that few mages you can afford for Vanheim would be used smartly to capture few blood slaves each turn instead of leading armies, searching, researching and casting rituals.

The option to utilize it is there. I said minor ability, there are instances where if you use scouts to blood hunt, you could take advantage of blood. Whereas Arco doesn't have the option. It's about versatility for a situation.

HI of Vanheim is nothing to write home about. They are basically on the same level as HI you can buy from independent provinces. Wouldn’t call that advantage.

Well they have the option at least. GE doesn't have the option unless they use Indeps. And Einherese are very nice.

Flying is clearly more superior to Sailing ability.

There is a commander that lets all your units fly even if they don't? Which one is that? Because Sailing allows that, which while not on the same level as a SINGLE flying commander, Valkaries fly and if you equip a commander with a flying item, are just as good as the inherently flying commander. Considering that you can't bless your Wind Riders with the Wind Rider Commander, but have to use a Flying Priestess, I consider them on equal footing except that Van can sail if the opportunity presents itself.

OTOH Priestess are enough to tip the scale in favor of Arco alone. The fact that you can heal your troops, get level 3 priests, and nature support mage for only 110 gold will SAVE you a lot of gold playing Arco. While Vanheim troops get afflictions in battle and become more useful as meat shield you can heal your own troops and save a lot of money that way. They shine mostly when BoT is cast or fighting against Miasma. Bare in mind that no other nation has access to healing troops like Arco has.

Yes the Priestesses and the ability to heal any affliction, disease and having someone who can cast protection is something that Van does not have access too. But it hardly catapults it ahead of a Van nation with 3 Productivity, 3 Order.

So, to sum it up, we can agree to disagree as I stand in my view that making Wind Riders cheaper would make Arco unbalancing overall.

Well it's hardly a surprise that you feel that way as you more than likely said you liked the current system or suggested it when you were beta testing it. However others are entitiled to see flaws in your argument. Which I do. The Wind Rider would be no more abusive if he cost 100Gold or 110 Gold. It's not as if suddenly that extra 1 for every 4 Wind Riders is going to throw balance completely out of the window.

But seeing as you can't see the possibility then there is no reason to discuss it further.

[ February 17, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Daynarr]

Where does Arco have Stealth Troops? They have stealth commanders, but I don't quite see their stealth troops. Or do you not consider stealth Vans and Valks to be any sort of advantage.

You said stealth OPTION not troops and stealth commander that diminishes your domain is quite an option - even more so since a single commander is harder to spot than stealth army.

The option to utilize it is there. I said minor ability, there are instances where if you use scouts to blood hunt, you could take advantage of blood. Whereas Arco doesn't have the option. It's about versatility for a situation.

The reason why scouts can be used is because they are cheap and can be equipped with cheap items. You don't use 380 gold commanders to get same results. Well maybe YOU do.

Well they have the option at least. GE doesn't have the option unless they use Indeps. And Einherese are very nice.

GE doesn’t have HI???? They have BETTER protected HI and can use same quality HI from independents, which gives them 2 options as I see. Vanheim are pretty much stuck with one type and that type is barely HI considering that something below 15 protection would be Medium infantry.

There is a commander that lets all your units fly even if they don't? Which one is that? Because Sailing allows that, which while not on the same level as a SINGLE flying commander, Valkaries fly and if you equip a commander with a flying item, are just as good as the inherently flying commander. Considering that you can't bless your Wind Riders with the Wind Rider Commander, but have to use a Flying Priestess, I consider them on equal footing except that Van can sail if the opportunity presents itself.

This 'point' is the reason I still reply to this discussion. First of all GE has 2 commanders that can fly so why would they ground commander??? Items that you can build quickly or cheap let your commander alone or just a small group of troops fly with them and there is only one unique item that allows you to fly your entire army with them. I need only 1 flying item to bring my priestess with them and it can be made quick and cheap enough (at least for Arco). There is a BUNCH of cheap items that allow you to increase a number of units you can command if you really need to.

I can't believe that someone would even argue that sailing could be EQUAL to flying. Think about it, that isn't a matter of opinion or experience but single fact that you can move 3 territories on map ANYWHERE and GE has means to do so while sailing allows you to cross ONLY 1 sea territory. Geez.

Yes the Priestesses and the ability to heal any affliction, disease and having someone who can cast protection is something that Van does not have access too. But it hardly catapults it ahead of a Van nation with 3 Productivity, 3 Order.

Vans don't NEED 3 productivity for anything else then gold because their units cost much more gold then resources (with the exception of their "HI"). Turmoil scale 1 is not so much of a disadvantage and you can beef up other scales with spare design points or use high admin castle. You are making it sound like you MUST have 3 in production in order to win a game. Priestess is much more worth it in my experience, but as you said it, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Well it's hardly a surprise that you feel that way as you more than likely said you liked the current system or suggested it when you were beta testing it. However others are entitiled to see flaws in your argument. Which I do.

You don't have to agree with me bout you do have to respect other peoples opinion as well and, beta tester or not, am entitled to one as well. And just like you may see flaws in my argument I can see flaws in yours so that is why I said to "agree to disagree" and don't see a point why you drag this as dead cat around.

The Wind Rider would be no more abusive if he cost 100Gold or 110 Gold. It's not as if suddenly that extra 1 for every 4 Wind Riders is going to throw balance completely out of the window.

Here you say that change in gold cost for Wind Rider is so small that it wont change balance. Then why should there BE a change in cost?

But seeing as you can't see the possibility then there is no reason to discuss it further.

On that I agree.

Edit: Typos.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:14: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

[IKerensky]

Just my uninformed 2cents.

Valkyries mmake Pegasus rider look overpriced.... Well if they meet in battle on a 1 to 1 basis , who will win ? here I bet for the pegasus higu protection and lance.

If they meet with a budget of 1000 gold who will win ? is it unbalanced ?

Guess the answer about the price question lie in here.

About Chariot, will bow mixed with standard fire during the hold and attack sequence ?