Suggestions to improve the Water Magic discipline

[Vicious Love]

Too many of these suggestions would make water too much like the other paths. The sort of battlefield mojo suggested here really sounds more like fire magic, and the overland population killers/economy disrupters are already present in plenty of other paths. Methinks we should make what water already has more powerful, rather than making all the other paths less unique and ruining water's style and the strategies associated with it in the process.
The Waterways spell is definitely fifthed, and reflection definitely fits water's symbolic aspect, though I worry about balance issues.
The water path peripheral benefit is definitely the feeblest of them all, but allowing water mages to bring 5-10 units underwater with them might ruin the water races' home court advantage, and make certain higher levels spells kinda useless. Besides, water mages can already supplement native oceanic troops with kickass aquatic summons the moment a land nation has a foothold in the sea.
I'd much rather see water mages get either a defense bonus, or something a bit more useful for non-melee mages, though I'm not entirely sure what.
If entirely new types of spell really are necessary, there's plenty that water symbolizes which isn't quite covered by the other paths, such as the adapatability/malleability/motion/fluid gooeyness evident in Quickness and in the Masters of the Way, coupled with the serenity also seen in the Masters, but not readily apparent in any actual spells.
If you positively must rip off the other paths, there're probably things that can be done with scrying that retain that watery touch, rather than being pure astral.

[PvK]

Good point, V.L..

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

I think Ice fortresses are a neat idea, though they should probably only work in cold provinces.

An Ice Wall spell to block land access (and supply and gold and resources via castles) to a province might be interesting too. It would have a strength based on the number of gems put into it, and get worn down both by heat scale and by units trying to enter (using their seige ability). Might be more work for IW than it's worth, though. Maybe a Dom3 idea.

Edit: Oh, and here's an amusing idea for a combat spell that would only work (best?) in cold provinces: Snowball - a growing rolling snowball that rolls through enemy formations trampling them...

PvK

[ April 19, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by PvK:

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

It is called 'quickening' alt lvl 8, area 5

[Endoperez]

I though Ice Fortress would be something like your Ice Wall idea, temporary fort that gets destroyed when sieged and/or when it melts. It could get bad with some Earth rituals though.

Very Powerful cursed magical item costing 80 water gems and giving the wielder +1 on any magic path, including those he doesn't have. If it was an armor no-one would be able to wear two of them.

Good ones, IMO, are Water Way, Watery Form, Reflection, propably some others I forgot.

Maybe water should be Random magic? That would link Water and Luck together. I can't really come up with other things than that Robe of the Rainbow, and that is just pure random. Maybe Gandalf could give us some hints?

[PvK]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

It is called 'quickening' alt lvl 8, area 5

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Sounds wicked, assuming it gives the +3/+3, +AP, and multiple attacks. You guys sure Water needs help?

Edit: I guess you do have to survive to Alt level 8, though.

PvK

[ April 19, 2004, 21:21: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Norfleet]

One catch that everyone may be missing is that what's important here is good water RITUALS: All the combat spells in the world can't really become a large enough gem sink to make water gems useful for non-clams. Water magic has to compete on the strength of its rituals, as it already has a fair number of combat spells which tend to run the gamut from godly (quickness, quickening), to useless in most situations(water strike, water shield).

There are, however, very few worthwhile ritual spells.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
I though Ice Fortress would be something like your Ice Wall idea, temporary fort that gets destroyed when sieged and/or when it melts. It could get bad with some Earth rituals though.

I meant to suggest both. A fortress is an HQ and a place to hide, but can be bypassed. A wall would block all movement (except flying & magical) in and out of the province, and wouldn't serve as a fort. Water already has a ritual to freeze the surface of all water provinces, so a limited ice wall around one province might be considered reasonable.

PvK

[Slygar]

Just a quick thought. It's always seemed kind of silly to me that Air evocation spells work underwater, while water's dont. I would think it would be pretty suicidal to throw a bolt of lightning at someone underwater. But shouldn't spells like Ice Strike function there? After all, you'd just be freezing some of the surroundings and hurling it at the enemy, which would probably be easier than just generating the ball of ice out of nowhere like normal.
And no risk of electrocuting yourself either!

Note that I dont mean ALL water evocation spells, like Falling Frost and Neifel Flames would obviously be excluded, but Ice Strike, Cold Bolt, and Cold BLast should definately work underwater, I think. Also note that my assumption that Lightning Bolt, Orb Lightning, and Thunderstrike do work underwater comes from the manual, so if thats not true, dont flay me alive.

[Jondifool]

just some thoughts? trying to be inspired by the good points about uniqeness and about need for monthly rituals

I had been thinking a little on the status of light infantery as discussed here
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=002364

couldn't water magic be a suitable candidate to improve the use and strenght on light inf.

something like changing the whole battlefield to a muddy place, where heavy inf is severly punished. But thats maybe to similar to other spells. A ritual improving the use for LIs was maybe a neat option. I tend to think of water magic as defensive and as such I think of something making defense of a provinse a little more poverfull or giving some good skirmish powers

A option was a lower upkeep spell/ritual working for LIs (or all tropps) in the one province where the spell is cast? Basicly this makes the water gems able to turn into gold when enough troops are gathered.

But forgetting about the LI talk I have been thinking that if water need some really unique and usefull monthly ritual , what about one turning water only troops into troops cabable of going on land/and in sea.

This could be done by changing the aquatic ability to amhibian or something similar.
Or it could be something like a mermaid curse , where a few troops gets a disease/ and now has to change and go on land/into the sea or loose hp. Or gets some limmited rounds to go on land in!

(this could maybe even be combined with clamps -if clamps was turned into something like the fewer fetish forced to be hold on land- but thats another topic).

well thats pretty vaque but someone might want to comment on it anyway

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
something like changing the whole battlefield to a muddy place, where heavy inf is severly punished. But thats maybe to similar to other spells. A ritual improving the use for LIs was maybe a neat option. I tend to think of water magic as defensive and as such I think of something making defense of a provinse a little more poverfull or giving some good skirmish powers
well thats pretty vaque but someone might want to comment on it anyway

Hmmm. Maybe a spell that muddies the entire battlefield. Light Infantry (and militia, etc) aren't affected, but HI and Cavalry, any high armor units, take penalties. -2 to Defense, -2 to protection for anything over, say, 8 armor protection? No effect on flyers, maybe no effect on units with Swamp survival.

This would reflect military history in the effects - cavalry ruled the battlefield, armored foot also did quite well. But in rainy, muddy conditions, the unarmored opponents were able to overcome. Horses slip in the mud, everyone does - but the LI and skirmishers were able to get up quicker and stick sharp pointy objects through the chinks in the armor.

Then again - this doesn't actually fix water, nor does it fix LI - it only helps make things not-so-bad if you have both.

[ April 21, 2004, 17:29: Message edited by: Cainehill ]