Worst Summon ??

[Zapmeister]

I actually have the total opposite view of Gandalf in that I think something is pretty much always unbalanced, something is always strongest and something is always weakest. I think that's true of simple games and the more 'deep' the game, the more likely it is to be true. That doesn't mean it's totally broken or even that anything is worth the effort to change. It's just the nature of the beast.

Very well put, Kel, and also my view, although I've never found such excellent words to express it.

A background noise of small imbalances is not only not a problem, it's also inevitable and part of the colour of the game. Balance issues are the "spikes" that stand out against this backgound noise, and they are only a problem for people (like me) that care about the diversity of strategies that are available to people that play to win.

If there's a few balance spikes in the game, then it doesn't take long before they get heavily used, reducing diversity. As a game designer from way back, my goal has always been to remove the spikes, leaving a more-or-less homogenous, and therefore diverse, set of strategies available to the people that play to win.

[Gandalf Parker]

Of course there is a best and a worst. But that doesnt mean its an imbalance. In some games that would be true if the balance is done by making everything fairly matched. But if a game uses rock-paper-scissors balancing then a worst or best in each Category doesnt mean it needs changed.

(oh yeah and Ive been balancing game items in mmogs for over a decade.)

[ May 19, 2004, 02:48: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Zapmeister]

But if a game uses rock-paper-scissors balancing then a worst or best in each Category doesnt mean it needs changed.

Sure. But what we (or at least I) have been talking about is the game of rock-paper-scissors-atombomb in which rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock and the atombomb beats everything.

The atombomb is a balance spike that should be removed to make the game more interesting.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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But if a game uses rock-paper-scissors balancing then a worst or best in each Category doesnt mean it needs changed.

Sure. But what we (or at least I) have been talking about is the game of rock-paper-scissors-atombomb in which rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock and the atombomb beats everything.

The atombomb is a balance spike that should be removed to make the game more interesting.

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Considering their cost, atombombs are a terrible summon. Much better to summon thousands of scissors and fully equip them.

[Cheezeninja]

Hmmm... it seems to me that the 'worst' summon could be wish, because when the game turns into a wishfest of doomhorrors and clams it suddenly loses alot of its dimensions, and correspondingly its fun. The worst could just as easily be the best as well, if its overpowered. And im not saying it is, i have yet to even complete a MP game, i'm just throwing that out based on what i've read on the message board. Worst does not have to equal most useless.
And give thanks for games like this with so many nuances and factors that its actually a subject of debate as to what the worst units are, and in what situation. I've been playing this game pretty steadily for a few months and i havnt even used all the summons yet. Its wonderful.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
Hmmm... it seems to me that the 'worst' summon could be wish, because when the game turns into a wishfest of doomhorrors and clams it suddenly loses alot of its dimensions, and correspondingly its fun.

An easy fix for that is adding a random variable so that when someone wishes for a DoomHorror there is a percentage chance the DoomHorror attacks the territory where it was summoned. Or a percentage chance the DoomHorror arrives with battle afflictions. Each of the ones I listed should have a 20% chance which would make the game more interesting in my opinion. Other variables could be added as well.

[Molog]

Summon fire drake is pretty crappy. 11 firegems for a slow low range imprecice artillery unit. Most of the times the thing doesn't hit anything, ends up in melee and gets killed by a couple of militia.

Rather convert the 11 firegems in 165 gold.

[Norfleet]

That seems to be the case with most fire magic summons: They're dullards, very much like their water magic counterparts. The difference is, fire gems are useful: You turn them into gold.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
That seems to be the case with most fire magic summons: They're dullards, very much like their water magic counterparts. The difference is, fire gems are useful: You turn them into gold.

Fire Kings are very nice sommons though. Summer Lions at their peak monthes are pretty good as well, although quite expensive. Still they are the best of 4 seasonal spirits IMO.

The trick is to employ them in mass and in the right place in the right time. I've had several important battles where the concentrated flank charge with lead by 15-20 summer lions sealed the fate of large and crytical struggles. And unlike other and better bung-for-the-buck summons you can get Summer Lions very early.

In general fire magic is certanly not the most valuable of magic types, but it has its usses. Flambeus are terrific weapon against popular SC types such as banelords, wratihlords and even unfamous VQs. And if you have extra fire gems to burn > you can always forge cheap ligthless latterns, than can give a very signigicant boost for your reseachers. Also when you have life and death emmergincy you can indeed turn your firegems into gold at best rate. Especially so if you got alchemic in the random event or can recruit one as indep. mage.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Fire Kings are very nice sommons though. Summer Lions at their peak monthes are pretty good as well, although quite expensive. Still they are the best of 4 seasonal spirits IMO.

Summer Lions with the nature spell protection or mass protection brings their protection from 0 to 10 !