So how 'bout those Mets?

[archaeolept]

I think the likely obsessive nature of it makes a certain truth of norfleet saying that it was not of his doing, that it was something beyond his control, which on the face of it seems a stretch.

[Zapmeister]

As for Norfleet not sending in his turn or 'defending himself' whatever conclusions you come up with are yours, there could be any number of reasons based on your own perspective, but the common consent is it didn't provide a majorly positive reaction.

Not sure what you mean by this. But I'm done on this topic, with my final comment being that if the possibility of fiddled files being sent to Illwinter is the only pro-Norfleet theory, then Esben Mose Hansen is part of the conspiracy:

Mose had made a copy of this file, in case Norfleet will try to "hack" it once again and he send it to Illwinter.

I mean. That no matter which way you look at it. Norfleet refusing to send his file or even continue discussion means there is no good way of looking at that refusal. Meaning it couldn't be construed as a Pro for Norfleet's Side of the Story.

I sincerely doubt Mose was apart of any conspiracy having to deal with this. Though, as I said before I find it very hard to see how you could cheat without the fatherland file, unless there is a way for a .trn or .2h to modify the structure of the fatherland to produce an effect.

It may be that there is some sort of ingame code weakness that allowed some in game command or combination of commands to produce some sort of gem production.

Or it could be a weakness in the Ebsen server and someone could hack into the server and adjust the fatherland file to their desire.

[archaeolept]

well, in one of the "Retarded" games on mosehansen, Norfleet was able to perform the eminently useful task of force-hosting the game (as one of the participants had dissappeared w/out going AI) - an option that was not available publicly, certainly. I always had to wonder about the security of esben's server after that.

[Stormbinder]

Consider this Gandelf: If you personally would be on the receiving end of this crap in the first place, and had the game which you have created and invested so much of your personal time and energy ruined in such a way it was, maybe you would feel slightly different about it, don't you think? You know, it's always quite easy to judge about "ends" and "means" from the side. In fact, to be honest with you, my own position would be more similar to yours as well, if I would be in your shoes. But to be totally fair, you have to take into consideration the fact that it is hard to expect from the party which was on the receiving end of such things (twice by now), to remain 100% cool and calm and take everything with a good sense of humor. >;(

/Edited out a Personal Email from Kristoffer O./ - Zen


To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion. After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly.

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

Stormbinder

[The_Tauren13]

well put, storm
i for one appreciate your work to expose norfleet, and have no doubt that he cheated
although your previous norfleet hating may seem to spoil your reputation, it just means you were the right man for the job to expose him (anyone seen I, Robot?)

It may be that there is some sort of ingame code weakness that allowed some in game command or combination of commands to produce some sort of gem production.

this is a possibility to be considered. with his parting words, norfleet called what happened a 'glitch'. he may mean he found some sort of bug that allowed him to produce these gems, and was simply extorting it.

[Demosthenes]

on a side note, what does the title of this thread refer to? 'Mets' meaning?

As I don't think anyone touched on this...

The Mets are the American baseball team from New York. The title was a joke on American colloquialism at changing the subject. As in "Nice Weather We're Having?"

i.e. I posted that within a couple minutes of the Ermor thread being locked.

[Maltrease]

I am also very thankful that Storm took the time to track this down and prove his case. As other have said it is was certainly a difficult task for him to do against the chiding and disbelief by many people. His history with Norfleet obviously makes it difficult to accept Stormfleets comments at face value, but here there does not seem to much question about the soul of the issue.

Its always easier to look the other way and forgot about it. I am very glad Stormbinder stuck this through.

Its just my opinion, but I don't think a "Sorry" or "Thank you" is uncalled for.

[Mardagg]

first of all,big thanks to stormbinder for catching Norfleet.
As a matter of fact I never played a MP game ,where Norfleet stayed longer than a few turns before going AI.
Thats why I never believed that Norfleet used "different" methods in playing the game,even though several players I knew from former games warned we,that he may be cheating.I,thus,maintained neutral regarding this.

From my point of view,its clear that he cheated now:

1.Several players always thought this,which made me at least thinking about it.
2.In my recently started MP game,Norfleet left the game after we all got a cheat detection message about him,playing Caelum(unexplainable wealth increase,or something like that).
After all,this game has also master password activated,so there would have been possibilities to proof that he did not cheat(or otherway round).
3.Now we have incredible huge numbers,which are by NO means achievable by turn 23 through normal play.

Now,I cant understand though ,why there are still some people that dont believe in this and ,furthermore,are "hacking" on Stormbinder instead of being grateful for the time he(and others) have invested to catch a cheater.
Also I find it very sad,that some Posts apparently are deleted,as it seems even those of the developers.
IMO,the explanations for this are not sufficient.
This is a serious theme,not just a normal topic, and all people should be allowed to post their opinions,as long as they are not extremely offending,and,more important,to read all other opinions.
IMO,the topics about this should stay open for at least a week or so,deleting it after this period would be ok,if felt necessary .
I seriously think,that,in this special case, deleting lots of replies and closing whole topics will hurt the communitiy a lot more,than just letting everyone post what he wants to say,at least for a while.

Even if we dont know,how he was able to do it,we have only 2 possibilities:

1.Norfleet or a friend of him did manipualte the game.
2.Unlikely,but:
Someone else manipulated the game,so that Norfleet can be called a cheater,at Last.

Regarding 1.:

It may be that he was exploiting a bug here,or manipulating the turn files,or hacking into the Mosehansen server.
Regardless what he did,its always cheating by intention.
He always had the possibility to contact Illwinter, and tell them about what he is able to do,to prevent this in further games.

Regarding 2.:

To achieve those numbers,which are now revealed,he had to cheat right from the start of the game,most likely every turn.
So,even if it was someone else,who altered the game so that he got lots of gems every turn,Norfleet didnt tell anybody of this and just used it to his advantage.
This is also cheating,nothing more and nothing less.

It might be said that in certain circles, Norfleet was known to have behavior that would be considered cheating but could not be proven directly as such, but it was well known that he is/was at some time.