Caelum pretender design

[Kel]

Chazar said:

As I said, I agree with that purpose, but apart from combat...?

I do not like using Close-Combat-Pretenders, since having access to foreign magic to forge nice items like DwarvenHammers and StaffsofElementalMastery or to summon creatures like StormDemons or IceDevils is much more helpful than a single strong combatant.

As a 3A (actually, mine might be 2A now, come to think of it) 2W 3E 3D pretender, it's not one or the other, the GK is beautiful for fulfilling multiple roles, that's specifically why I would use the GK and not, say, a Wyrm. If you are going to have 3E for hammer forging, why not have it be useful when you aren't hammer forging, by using it for Invulnerability ? How do you get the earth gems for forging hammers ? You use the same 3E to site search when it's convenient. I use the GK for all functions (except scouting, I guess )

You are 100% right that being able to cover the weaknesses in your summoning and forging is important when considering a pretender. However, the GK will be your first SC, by far, if you research alteration-3 and will give you a lot of early expansion, getting you to the point where you can make hammers or summon 'wicked fun things'(tm) that much faster.

Note 1: False horror is Alt-6, just one more level past Alt-5 for invulnerability so there is a research synergy, you aren't sidetracking your research by having a multi role pretender. Sometimes I go straight to alt-6 before sending seraphs out, sometimes I just go to alt-3 and switch back later on. Depends on game variables. If my national research took me down completely different paths (like Ctis does), I wouldn't use a GK.

Note 2: in my experience, an ethereal, chilled, air shielded, ironskinned, mistformed, mirrored, quickened (all available by Alt-3), fear producing pretender can be a lump of play-doh and pretty well take any normal indie province. Soul vortex is more of a bonus since it isn't as readily available, research wise. If you are fearful of losing him, keep him inside the highest dominion you can.

Like I said, I am not an expert and my ideas haven't been certified by any of the resident experts, that's just my take on it

- Kel

[Chazar]

I am not arguing against using a GK as SC, but I just feel that I have time using him in battle, so I dont want to waste my design points in Air & Water.

Sure, my GK is site-searching to get me those earth gems (since Bloodslaves for bloodstones are only available until I get enough blood-sages and I only forge a few clams (4-8) to help with immediate gem shortage and to enable my astral-sages to cast probing). But since my mammoth occupy a province a turn and since my scouts usually find some easy targets for some windguided archers, my GK is heavily overstrained with site searching and as soon as I got enough earth gems for a hammer, he will barely be able to leave the lab. So I rather ensure good scales and never waste much thought in using him anywhere on the front. He might be of some use in defense, but I did that once (in hostile dominion - yes I had overextended) and immediately gathered two affilictions, which encourages me to stick im in a lab...

[Kel]

I don't remember the exact numbers but adding A2W2 to a GK is only like what, 50-60 points ? Shouldn't hurt your scales too much, makes him more viable as an SC, gives him better site searching and access to more rituals, like ID's. All for 50-60 points.

Chazar said:
and as soon as I got enough earth gems for a hammer, he will barely be able to leave the lab.

Just curious, what does he do in the lab after forging the hammer ? I use him to forge a couple key items but I usually take a province, search the province while a lab is being built, forge something like a hammer or a path enhancer, and then move on and take another province.

If you don't intend to use him as an SC very much, you are right, water and air (especially) aren't that useful. You said you aren't arguing against using him as an SC but it really sounds to me like you are or, at least, you don't use him as an SC or a site searcher *as much* as I would in the early/middle game. Which is fine, of course...but that probably explains the difference in how we would build them.

- Kel

[Chazar]

I dont build a lab everywhere, so I need to move to lab (no big deal with winged shoes, but still a turn to go). If I have noting to forge, I usually return to site searching, but there is plenty to forge: Dwarven Hammers, EarthBloodStones (one for every earth high seraph, and once for an earth sage to create the earth boots), BrazenSkull (just one for a blood seraph to bind StormDemons), Deathmagic enhancement items, Hellswords. Apart from that, he summons death & blood creatures as needed. This usually kept him pretty occupied in the games I have tried him so far (which are only three). In the case that he bores himself to Death, I use him to bloodhunt for a turn, which gets him going again in the next...

This seems to keep him occupied - but my experience with the GhostKing is rather limited to three MP-games (and some unfinished SP-Games), and each configuration was a bit different, but I recall that I must have given him water to summon frost fiends and ice devil, which I am missing now in the Last game (D3E3B3) as it approaches turn 40...

[Chazar]

Another thing on human pretenders: Are they any good for Caelum? Nice scales require a high dominion to pay off. Thats my specific thing, ok, but in addition Caelum's economy depends on cold weather, which also demands a high dominion! So there is a combined benefit from high dominion which makes me think that dom-strength 7 is an absolute minimum for Caelum! I dont think that HeartOfWinter is worth it, but maybe that is different with a lower dominion strength, is it?

So human pretenders or the ArchSeraph are simply to expensive to get that dominion strength in my opinion, since even an increased path cost rarely outweighs the cost for boosting the dominion. This is why I dont use the VQ anymore (and I did not use her much in combat either).

So what is the cheapest chassis if you desire Death, Blood, Earth and a high dominion like 8? Which chassis leaves most points for scales & castle? I think the GhostKing and the Fountain of Blood are the only choices there...

[Boron]

Chazar said:
So what is the cheapest chassis if you desire Death, Blood, Earth and a high dominion like 8? Which chassis leaves most points for scales & castle? I think the GhostKing and the Fountain of Blood are the only choices there...

The cheapest solution is the FoB there .
A nataraja has 3 dominion as the Ghostking has .
The Ghostking is with your 3 magic paths only 36 points cheaper than the Nataraja , so exactly 1 scale . The Nataraja would be a better endgame SC though with your special 3 scales . Would be enough to cast invulnerability + soul vortex .

Just curious : why do you take dominion 8 with caelum ?
Dominion 6 saves you 63 points with a dominion 3 pretender . In times of need Caelum has really good priests with the Seraphines . Since you play with rather good scales you can afford building a few more temples/castles .
Dominion of 8 is imo with most nations not needed , only those who are very short in money and or lack priests like Ermor / Pan cw and Mictlan is special .
Because you said you bloodhunt with Caelum you build normally a castle in every bloodhunt province too otherwise your bloodhunters are an too easy target . Building a temple there doesn't hurt too .
Since you have lots of labs with bloodhunting in your empire anyways you can take dominion 6 instead and add Air 2 for traveling then .

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Just curious : why do you take dominion 8 with caelum ?

I've noticed that Caelian economy is much more stable during sommer with a Dominion score of 9-10. I rather neglect HeartOfWinter in favour of a high Dominion. In addition, I felt that it is a huge advantage in the beginning: The provinces you take switch pretty fast to my good scales with a high dominion, which accelerates expansion noticeably in my experience. It probably doesnt pay off if you play on big maps, but if you play on maps where allmost all indipendents are gone around turn 20, this gives you a nice headstart. A huge farmland province is well worth being site searched or bloodhunted by my pretender early on: Its income is insignificant if its not cold and orderly, but with the high strength, the pretender residing there spreads dominion easily to a higher number, resulting in a quick scale change - and having order3, cold3 & growth3 makes a huge difference in income for big provinces!

Also, I dont have a huge blood economy: I usually hunt with 3-4 blood sages with rods in a single >5000 pop province + my pretender wherever he happens to me. Caelum isnt a blood nation, so I only go for a few StormDemons, some IceDevils and some Hellswords. I also do not necessarily built a lab (caelian scouts are quite fine for transport, since I need bloodslave in big portions anyway) nor a castle in that province, but I shift the blood hunters if I have another province suitable for bloodhunting i.e. <8000 pop which needs a castle. I also choose either a Castle or a WizardsTower, since I do not see the point of mere WatchTowers. My fliers might relief a siege, but still they might need two turn to arrive or one turn to cast a WrathfulSkies with a skirmishing force. Hence I do not have that much castles, I
rather spent my money on troops and mages to throw at my enemies. I built just enough castles to defend chokepoints and to turn all my gold into mages So I am usually lacking the provinces and castles to built more than a 5 temples anyway before I am engaged in active warfare, where my money is needed at the front...


But I post this here to learn, not to proselytize (we are out of the game, aint we?) so please more comments about improvements and flaws in my theory!?!

[Endoperez]

Caelum needs high dominions to get money (cold scale down & order/port/whatever up), not the other way up. Also you don't need to use that much money for temples then, and you are more restistant to the lategame attacks (namely Ghost Riders) that were said to be too powerful as they could raid all your temples outside castles.

Most nations can do with less, but Abysia and Caelum want high dominion as their income largely depends on right temperature.

[Boron]

Oh i thought you try to get a bloodstone production running with your pretender and then e.g. spectres as additional forgers

Spectres alone make D3 worthwhile being taken for most nations imo


Curious again : how do you catch the ice devils with Caelum before Abysia/Mictlan summon all of them ?
I think you don't mean wished ice devils .

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Curious again : how do you catch the ice devils with Caelum before Abysia/Mictlan summon all of them ?

After the first blood-stone, all my slaves are usually reserved for that. Research is not an issue, since I am researching quite much. So far this worked, but I never played against Abysia/Mictlan in those games. At which turn would you assume them all to be summoned?