From the mouth of Aristotle

[Arryn]

Boron said:
My assumptions about nuclear missiles were only from an extreme viewpoint i fear which i tried to "simulate" .
The book/film The Sum of All Fears from Tom Clancy has impressed me there .

You used a totally fictional story that Clancy wrote as the basis of your saying that in REAL LIFE the Israeli's got their nukes from the U.S.? Wow. I wonder (and shudder) to think what other things you might believe based upon fictional sources?

Boron said:
The scenario seemed pretty realistic to me when the Usa thought about a preventive strike on Russia .

While I enjoyed this story (so much so that I own both the book and the DVD), it's a work of fiction. There are numerous flaws in the story if you know what to look for and where to look for them. But they do not detract from the story because it is very well written and they are well hidden and/or subtle. Tom Clancy knows his art (writing and research), which includes what facts to alter and how, so that reality gets distorted (for the sake of security) and fiction gets a taste of "reality".

Boron said:
And in a few years if Bush keeps the power

Ye gods I hope not.

Boron said:
So if China would really shoot all their 20 long range nukes on the Usa the Usa would strike back , China would not exist anymore .

More or less. They'd get sent right back to the age of feudal warlords, not that present-day China is much more advanced, socially.

Boron said:
My fear is that in a few years some fanatic militarists may calculate the risk of being hit as worthy doing a preventive strike . If the new SDI Bush lets develop now in 5-10 years can kill 95/99% of all incoming missiles this might get a big problem .

The U.S. will never engage in a nuclear first-strike. However, a non-nuclear pre-emptive strike is possible ... which if executed as ineptly as the war in Iraq was, would simply trigger the other side into launching first. It doesn't matter who launches first. Everyone loses. All rational military and political leaders have known this for 50+ years. What's scary is that the leaders of some nations (like N. Korea, Iran, etc.) don't care if they lose millions and their country becomes a wasteland. Some of these fanatic morons actually think dying is good. It's just too bad we can't let them have their wish (to die) without suffering collateral damage in the process. The more fanatics kill themselves, the cleaner the gene pool becomes. Now if we could only figure out a safe way to make them happy ...

Boron said:
And there is always the other problem mentioned in The Sum of All Fears that terrorists may get a small bomb and smuggle them to New York / Berlin etc. , just to the most important city with which nation they are "at war" atm.

That's the only realistic, and hence truly scary, part of the movie. The unrealistic parts of the movie are how the terrorists got their bomb, and what the US and Russia did after the attack. But it's a movie. A certain amount of suspension of disbelief is necessary. Just don't forget that after you've finished watching the movie you need to turn your disbelief back on and not confuse what you just saw with reality.

Boron said:
Do you have played combat mission yourself ?

No. I rarely play that style of game.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
I am really looking forward to HoI 2 and world in flames from matrixgames .
Any other recommendations or do i already have the probably best games for this genre for my special taste ?

WIF is a Gary Grigsby game, and his games are very detailed, yet notoriously buggy and awkward to play. WIF may be an exception, but GG's track record is lousy. Personally, I'm waiting for reviews before I waste money on yet another GG piece of {self-censored}.

I'll probably get HoI2, despite knowing that Paradox cannot code a competent AI. I bought EU, EU2, HoI, and Vicky. Which means I'm {choose one or more of the following}: dense, a glutton for punishment, stubborn, or desperate for strategy games.

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Stormbinder may i ask you too if you know any good realistic world war 2 strategy game ?
Your detailed post where you gave advice to Tinktank seeking a good rpg impressed me . You said there rpgs are your favourite genre but perhaps you have a good advice for me too

If you and Arryn recommend the same game to me it is even better because then i know that this game is most likely good

At the moment i like steel panthers world at war most tactically and i think Hearts of iron is quite good strategically .

I am really looking forward to HoI 2 and world in flames from matrixgames .
Any other recommendations or do i already have the probably best games for this genre for my special taste ?

Heh, I must admit your guess was correct. I generally play only two types of computer games - RPG and turn-based strategy games, with very rare exceptions from other genres. Although computer RPG comes first for me, as I mentioned in that thread.

This being said, if you are looking for the best WW2 strategy game on tactical level, than Combat Mission:Bararossa to Berlin(with its desert expansion) beats any competition, hands down. It is the best and most realistic computer simulator of WW2 tactical level battle in any computer game so far. The level of details and autenticity is really amazing. It aslo have pretty good AI, tons of players-made mods/scenarios and compaigns (some of which are even better than official ones), and very active and loyal players community. Once you will managed to beat AI with odds against you, you can start some MP battles, which are a real bLast against good opponents. I still remeber in details my Last stand defense of ruble that was Stlaingrad's central square against wave after wave of advancing german armor and infatry, as well as other MP battles.


Of the more traditinal WW2 games, played on the operational level, I would recommend SP:WAW (make sure to get some official compaings from Matrix, they significantly increase fun from the game). Another great strategic WW2 game is Korsun Pocket, which was released about a year ago.


Finally if you are looking for the WW2 game on the global scope, where you control the nation rather than individual units or sqaurds, than I would suggest Hearts of Iron (make sure to download all the patches, CORE, everthing. Look around their forums and ask for advice which mods you should install).


The general gameplay style of HOI is mostly similar to EU1/2. Although in my opinion EU, especially EU2 was a significantly better game. Still HOF is quite good, despite some if its shortages. Based upon my experience people quickly form love/hate relaitions with it, they either completely fall in love with it or think quite badly of it. Which actually is pretty tipical for all Paradox's games.


EDIT: NM, I just noticed that you have already mentioned HOI and said that you are waiting for HOI2, so you know what I am talking about.



Anyway, these are the best WW2 strategic games that I have played so far. Good luck!

[Arryn]

I agree with Stormy's game choices. Imagine that. He and I actually agree on some things. Shocking. Truly shocking.

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:
I agree with Stormy's game choices. Imagine that. He and I actually agree on some things. Shocking. Truly shocking.

Acutally I find that you and me agree with each other quite often.

For example I agree with 99% of all the things you have said in this tread regarding history, WW2 figures and facts, as well as more recent developments regarding Iraq and Northerb Korea. It is not often you meet the person who actually knows what he is talking about, when he talks about history. Most people on the net as well as in RL think of themselves as major history biffs after reading 1 book on the subject. I am glad that you are obviously not one of them, which is not surprising if you have been studing history for 35 years.



The problem is that since I am quite lazy I find myself much more willing to post when I *disagree* with somebody and want to correct what I believe is some mistake, than when I agree with the person. Maybe that's why you might get impression that we disagree more often than we don't.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Boron]

Wow thanks Stormbinder and Arryn .
Your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa looks really awesome even better than steel panthers .

They are up to Combat Mission 3 now .
Do you own all parts of that series or are the newer ones realtime and less accurate and because of that not as good as your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa ?


Happy that you both mentioned HoI too .
My main gripe with HoI is that once you have teched out everything you have not much to do .

How do you like Victoria Stormbinder ? They will include parts in HoI 2 . I personally liked victoria expect for the daily revolution checks which made warmongering what i loved most too painful for me

[deccan]

You've really hijacked Zen's "I'm back" thread, Boron, and your Pandemonium turn is still outstanding.

[Arryn]

We're taking advantage of Zen's reduction to the ranks. He's no longer a pretender, so he can't *****-slap us with the almight Hand of the Moderator spell. And sweet ol' Gandalf is too much of a teddy bear to growl at us for being naughty. heehee

[Boron]

One Last thing back on the Nuke topic though .
Some things we normal mortals will never know .

So perhaps Israel got their first nuke like you told but Israel was almost always backed up by the USA and Israels secret service , the mossad is extremely good too .
So they say perhaps they got their nuke like you told but probably at least shortly after they got lots of new , better nukes or at least the ICBM's for that from the USA .

Israel was always amazingly inventive when getting new weapons in the past time though . They got the best from France/Soviet Union/Usa etc. etc.
They have probably the second best army of the world now . Only the Usa has a better army .


Another thing where i am quite interested but where it is hard to impossible to get good answers is how effective Stealth technology really is . The "sucky" europeans now just developed finally the eurofighter while you develop your F-22 Raptor who has stealth abilities but is an adequate all role fighter too unlike e.g. the F-117 .
So if only half of what your PR's say/claim there the F-22 is probably 20-30 years ahead of the eurofighter and every other fighter that exists at the moment in the world .

[Zen]

I never cared about going wildly OT on OT things. Actually considering that every topic veers so wildly off course it's not really that much of a deal.

Talking about Nazi's and Hitler could certainly go in a much worse direction (and has). But I might just ***** slap you Arryn, just for old times sake!