Cohen Mod 0.2

[Zen]

I would seem that a SC with high path costs would benefit less from a forge bonus because he is limited to one action a turn can either forge or kill armies single handedly.

But of course, that might just be my preference to use SC's for the duty of killing things and not being intimidating and forging items.

There is no doubt that early in the game, or with certain strategies a forge bonus has a high impact (Forging cheaply your first Indy stomping equipment, or later in the game).

But a Forge bonus benefits the ones who can forge a variety of items more than it does one that is limited by it's paths.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.

If you aim to use your mod in mp you seriously need to rethink the massive empowering you are giving Abysia. I dont understand how you can say you don't think your boosting Abysia when you are lowering the costs of every mage, boosting their non humanbred infantrys stats and making the apprentice non capitol only...what else would you call this? If you are seeking to do a overall balance mod you should consider which races are more powerful overall, and not just from your point of view. A good way to do that would be to look at the power rankings poll: Post#297066 where nearly everybody but you ranked Abysia in the top 5. A top 5 nation does not need any boosting in a global balance mod, the nations like Tien Chi and BE Ermor need boosting. When you give massive boosts to a nation thats already generally viewed as one of the most powerful in the game it appears to be nothing but blatant favoritism, compounded by the fact that you are known for playing this nation more than any other. Abysia is one of my favorite nations, but if you include these outrageous changes in your mod, don't expect me to join any games with your mod in it.

[Huzurdaddi]

I think Cohen does not realize the power of Blood magic. It it a school of magic availiable to only a select few nations and with good reason, it is awesome.

Blood is the best summoning school in the game. The only path which comes close is Death. Blood contains 11 full fledged SC's. It contains, perhaps, the best overall unit in the game the devil. It contains the only immortal unit. It has an excellent summon in the vampire.

It's just a great school. There is a reason why people who stumble upon sages really hope that they get blood as their random.

Abysia does *not* need help at the moment. The Moloch is insane. Zen's pretender mod pretty much addresses the pretender problems in the game ( although I think that the poor humans are still underpowered ).

[Kel]

Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

[Zen]

Kel said:
Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

Oh, Semi-useless. The GK isn't powerful because he can be a site searcher, forger and SC, but that he requires multiple paths to be a SC, has a host of intrinsic abilities, 0 Enc, low path cost.

If you want to argue that because it allows a secondary function to a SC, then I will agree that it does indeed. I don't see too many humans with only one eye and can be rendered unable to cast rituals, or site search because they gain the "lost an eye" affliction.

Your milage may vary, but putting a forge bonus on a unit that can't take a multitude of paths is potent if used properly, it is not *as* potent as one that can buy many more paths for cheaper.

Of course if Cohen wants to use that as a base, he may want to rethink the bonus on the Cyclops, and apply a lesser forge bonus in order to have the "I UBER FORGE I HU-MAN" logic and have the cap not quite be 40% but instead 25%.

Edit: This doesn't quite compare though to the fact that the Alchemist gets 4 paths, costs 60 and has a forge bonus. Though I'm sure it make sense to someone.

[Cohen]

You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

So you'll get more gold and gem because you've more income (both gold and gem).

Blood isn't that strong. Death has Banelords, Wraithlords, and Tartarians, plus a very good battle magic.
Even with the Vamp Lord without summon allies, and with the raised cost of Drain Life weapons the SC value should be lesser.

About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

Alchemist (now Arcane Blacksmith) has poor combat skill, and hp. The real issue is to give that 40% forge bonus to Black Forest Ulm, that really doesn't deserve it.

[Kel]

I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

[Zen]

Cohen said:
You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

Yes, I totally forget that SC's stomp indies! You are correct sir! How could I miss that? I'm glad you pointed out this glaring mistake in my thinking.

[Zen]

Kel said:
I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

Oh, so being flexible amounts to being powerful? So a human rainbow is not-powerful because he can't do one of the three things?

Or just that he's less powerful than a GK because he can do it all at a more reasonable price and without alot of the limitations of said human pretenders (while still being powerful?)

A pretender can be powerful by being only good at one thing, if that one thing allows you to fill a gap or weakness in the nation you are being a pretender for.

Of course that might just be your opinion and how you play, which is fine, because that is the only perspective that matters, to you.

You don't have to tell me that the GK is a good pretender, well suited to mulitple roles and if you wish to spend the points, suited to nearly all the roles that any number of nations need in order to be competitive.

That might be why in my mod he was modified in a 'nerf' direction because he overlapped any and all Pretenders in his class range (Half-Rainbow, Rainbow).

Edit: I will also add that he has the highest raw Def of any Pretender/SC. So he will always be strong defensively because of this and his undead abilities.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

THIS is the real issue most everyone has with your mod, it will ALWAYS be the real issue, and nonwithstanding the moloch and forge bonus's, is the main reason nobody will take your MOD seriously. The nation ranking wasn't a ranking on what you like to play, or what plays simplest (and Caelum plays MUCH simpler than Abysia IMO) it was a ranking on what individuals percieve to be the most powerful nation. Abysia is consistently ranked at the top of that list, so whether or not you believe those rankings, others most assuredly do and for this reason view your MOD with scepticism bordering on outright disbelief. Abysia IS powerful in the eyes of 99% of the people who play this game and if you expect others to take an interest in your mod for MP you are going to have to accept this fact.