Future of the EU

[Thermodyne]

I wouldn’t call that an exorcise, more like a sales pitch for the F22. Which is what it became and may have been from the beginning. 2nd line F15’s that were not allowed to use their radars in passive mode, not to mention equipped with older radars. No Awacs support, so they just broadcast their positions until the SU’s fired on them. And with a 100km range advantage, guess who won. Had it been F14’s with AIM 54’s it would have been a little different outcome. And had the F15’s been free to use normal tactics; I would think it would have been a lot different.

AA 10 70-170km

AIM 120 50-70km

AIM 54 210+km


Much has been said about long range kills with advanced missiles, but the reality has usually been that the dirty work happens closer in.

Here is the transcript of the first AIM 120 kill. While the target was marked as hostile at long range, the closing speeds insured that combat occurred much closer in.

- 1/13/93 Aerospace Daily: Transcript of Close F-16/AWACS coordination
v Radar acqusition and lock-on of the lead MiG was almost immediately
at around 20 nm as the MiG's "turned to confront" the F-16's
v The MiG-25's were reported to have fired at least one missile
v AWACS: "Benji 41, Lock Leader, Leader Past the Line, now 18 miles, Angels 29".
Benji 41: "Roger, they're south of the line."
AWACS: "Benji 41, status trailer"
Benji 42: "I have a lock, it's tracking"
AWACS: "OK, I show 'em well south of the line, 14 miles.
Toot Sweet, try to get the trailer"
Benji 41: "Benji Burners"
AWACS: "12 miles, 12 miles"
Benji 41: "Bogey Dope"
AWACS: "Benji, I show them 8 miles"
Benji 41: "Benji, I am looking for a Clearance to Fire"
AWACS: "Benji 41, Cleared Kill, Cleared Kill"
Benji 41: "Benji, understand Cleared Kill?"
[sound of lock-on tone]
AWACS: "Cleared to Kill, Cleared to Kill, you've got .....Bandits"
[sound of launch tone]
Benji 41: "Benji Fox"
AWACS: "Benji let's come hard left"
Benji 41: "Splash" [missile running time around 8 seconds]
Benji 41: "Benji, burners, let's take it down. Go Low."
[F-16's dive from 29,000 ft to 17,000 ft, new lock]
Benji 41: "Benji, Splash One, Splash One"
AWACS: "Copy, Splash One."

By the time Benji 41 had weapons release, the range was down to 8 miles. On tape, this is about a 15 second conversation.

[El_Phil]

No AIM-54s in active service anymore. Soon to be no F-14s either. Anyway back to the point.

I'm not saying it was a realistic exercise, it clearly was designed to say 'Look the F-15s are rubbish! Buy the F-22 or we're all going to die,' However the Indians had no AWACS, and were using older model Flankers as well. Also using Indian designed radars which weren't brand spanking new either.

So without the big force multiplier of brand new radars or AWACS the comparable era Soviet/Russian planes beat the US planes. So just saying Soviet designed planes would be swept from the sky is a big statement and based on one sided fights. Even the forces/training/etc up and it becomes a fight.