War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[DocShane]

I got on PBW just to escape the day and return to some level of normalcy. I couldn't resist reading this posting, however. It has to be the largest number of Posts in a single day on a single topic on Shrapnel.

Someone on TV compared this to Pearl Harbor. It is an inciting event, but much bigger than that. Pearl Harbor was a vicious attack on our military at an off-mainland base. 2,300 died. We anticipated we would eventually be at war with Japan, we just wanted to stay out of it as long as possible. What happened today was magnitudes larger. It was a direct attack on civilians on our mainland. Probably in large excess of 23,000 died. We have been engaged in diplomacy with various nations plagued by terrorism, just wanting to remain distanced. In both cases, they awoke a great sleeping beast.

As a physician, I agree with Hadrian and Lazarus. I do not want to be alarmist but this may only be a prelude of things to come. The perpetrators of this trajedy are probably also able to instigate biological terrorism. This is an indiscriminate killer of many more, even those of us seeming protected in the heartland of America. The military is prepared to defend themselves against such a threat, yet there is no good defense nor adequate preparedness among the civilian population. The weapons of choice would be anthrax, smallpox, plague, botulism, E coli, salmonella, cholera, and Ebola. The mechanisms to deliver it to the population are varied: aerosolized sprays, contaminated water, tainted food, infected human carriers. By the time it is recognized, the population will be widely infected and many dead.

May the dead and those family members who have lost or are missing loved ones find some peace in the face of this unprecedented trajedy. May God strengthen and repair our broken spirit. It is to all Americans affected by this disaster that I dedicate my signature:

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The Good Doc

"Henceforth I spread confident wings to space
I fear no barrier of crystal or glass;
I cleave the heavens and soar to the infinite.
And while I rise from my own globe to others
And penetrate even further through the eternal field,
That which others saw from afar, I leave far behind me."

-Giordano Bruno
"On the Infinite Universe and Worlds," 1584

[Phoenix-D]

quote:

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how the hell is someone going to get a sword past airport security

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Very easily. Ever been strip-searched? Didn't think so. So tape it to yourself. What about the metal detectors, you ask? Proper material, they won't be set off. (a knife or very short sword.. or gun.. is more likey).

Second, why didn't they do anything? Well, they didn't want to die, and they more than likely has no idea what was about to happen.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

This is friggin sick.
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...68594&zoom=yes

In case someone gets an attack of sense, what this is is a t-shirt.

On the front:
"I crashed a plane into the world trade center"
On the back:
"and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

Phoenix-D

[Puke]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Very easily. Ever been strip-searched? Didn't think so.

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no, but im patted down quite often. it might just be flattery for my nice ***, but i think its because airport security is fairly vigilant. I think it would be MUCH easier just to conceal a broad, flexible, 7 inch blade in the sole of your shoe. as long as you had eyelets or buckles or steeltoes or something to blame it on, i dont think you would have a problem at all.

a gun would be quite the trick though. it would need to be a single shot weapon, homemade, and you would need to carry the bullets in something seperate like your wallet that you could drop in the tray and not have scanned. even with a gun, i think you could only count on getting one shot off. i would hate to be embarassed by a misfire with my only shot, and on a holy crusade that kind of embarasment would be relly bad.

maybe they could have a bunch of people come thru with gun parts and then the guy with the ticket could assemble them in the bathroom and stuff it in his carry-on after he is thru security. If i stripped my automatic down to component parts, the only thing that would be recognized by the xray technicians would be the lower reciever. and i think i could fix that with a saw, a bracket, and a couple bolts. that or use something with a carbon fiber lower so you can conceal it on your person, and re-attach it to the upper on the other side.

[Puke]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
This is friggin sick.
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...68594&zoom=yes

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well, that didnt take long. on the one hand, i am apauled by the banality of our culture. on the other hand, i remember the 'i survived the terror in the towers' shirts from '93, and i think its good that people are able to recover and make light of the situation. it is indeed tragic, but the markets must open, and people must attend, or we really are victims of terror.

[Quikngruvn]

Some points to ponder.

Supposedly someone close to Osama bin Laden told a European (British?) newspaper three weeks ago that bin Laden was going to do something big and bad to the US.

My boss at work has been reading Nostradamus and has concluded that bin Laden, not Saddam Hussein, is the third Antichrist (after Napoleon and Hitler).

(There's also a $5 million dollar bounty on his head, but my guess is it will take more than $5 million to catch him.)

Note the weapon of choice in these attacks: American planes to destroy American lives. Kinda like ripping your arm off and beating you to death with it.

Reading on the internet this afternoon, every single nation's government that I saw had responded expressed sorrow, shock, horror, etc. at this act, including Yassar Arafat and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The only responses not condemning the attack were from some militant Muslim sects.

('Course, the cynic in me takes some of those responses with a grain of salt. The Taliban may just be trying to divert attention away from themselves as the next logical target. But the idealist in me, bruised though it is this day, still believes in the basic goodness of humanity.)

And I know that not all Muslims are extremists. But I will never understand what would drive someone to do such an act.

The dead and missing, at Last count:
260 airline passengers and crews
300 NYC firefighters
80 NYC policemen
800 Pentagon employees
and God knows how many in and around the WTC

But, by God, there are people still alive under all that rubble!

What to do with the site now? I had thought of a memorial, a la Oklahoma City. But my wife pointed out that that is prime real estate, and it would be a much bigger 'Screw you' if the WTC were rebuilt.

I apologize for the disjointed stream of conciousness in this post. My mind is still reeling-- at the images of the planes crashing into the WTC (CNN just showed a home video of the FIRST plane crashing), at the idea of a national landmark collapsing in ruins, at the idea of thousands of people dying because of the irrational thought process of a small number of individuals... and at the war that the US has suddenly found itself in. (I say suddenly, but I think we all knew that this day was coming-- just maybe not of such magnitude.) All I can do right now is keep on keeping on. But I have said a prayer for the victims, their families, and the brave men and women who put themselves in harm's way trying to rescue the victims. And I almost never pray, heathen that I am.

Quikngruvn, still in shock

[CNCRaymond]

As I am new here, I will try and keep my post small.

What transpired today, the horror of senseless terrorism against innocent people, has now become the poster for Islam. No matter who follows that religion, they will forever be known as murders and terrorists.

This is regrettable in that there are many millions of Islamic followers that would never harm any one and now must bare the stigma of what a few have done in the name of Islam.

My heart goes out to those people, and indeed to the victims of today's evil, and I would hope and pray that somehow, in some small way, people can find it in their hearts not to blame all of Islam for the acts of these cowards.

[HiveLordJim]

You gotta hate people who bomb innocent civilians.

This has to be the worst act of terrorism since the U.S. detonated atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

I certainly hope people like that pay for their evil acts.

[dogscoff]

I am deeply saddened by this horrible event. Driving home from work yesterday there were tears in my eyes at the reports of desperate ppl jumping to their deaths to escape the disaster area.

The important thing now is what the US government does next. There has been plenty of macho posturing and tough talk about revenge. This is not only ineffectual, but cheap and deeply disrespectful to the casualties of the disaster. What is needed is justice and an end to the hatred. Remember that justice and revenge are two entirely different things.

Cheap gestures to appease an angry public (ie randomly blowing stuff up in the middle east) would not do anything to eliminate or pacify the terrorist Groups invloved. The anger of the people must *not* be reflected in the actions of the government.

I'm not saying sit back and do nothing, but pick your targts carefully, and do not stoop to the brutal standards of the enemy. Act according to logic, reason and conmpassion rather than for emotion or public relations. To do otherwise would a step in the direction of mob rule and anarchy- the opposite of democracy.

Of course the US has officially denied involvement in the Afghanistani bombings. I hope that this denial is true, and that future actions will be well informed and carefully calculated operations.

Somehow I don't think my hopes will be realised.


EDIT: I also want to support the earlier post about Islam. The Islamic religion advocates peace and tolerance. Unfortunatly, it has been twistd into a weapon by certain Groups, just as Christianity was abused countless times to justify appalling things like the crusades or the spanish inquisition. Don't hate Muslims for this.

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[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 12 September 2001).]

[dumbluck]

With all due respect to the countless victims at the WTC, I think that the Pentagon attack is more important. The reason for this is that the Pentagon is a US _MILITARY_ installation. Using aircraft in a kamakazi role changes them from a vehicle designation to a weapon. Firing a weapon against a Military installation is AN ACT OF WAR according to the Geneva Convention (I think it was the GC, anyway). Granted, the culprit (alleged) is an individual, not a country, and a nation-state cannot wage war against an individual. However, said individual is being _knowingly_ harbored and protected by a nation-state, which in my eyes makes the nation-state culpable as well. And war CAN be declared on a nation-state, as we all know.

Note: I am not saying this is a good thing; in fact, just the opposite. A paraphrased quote from a movie (cant remember the name) sums it up best, I think: "Here and now, in the nuclear age, the real enemy is not a nation, but war itself." So the question is: does President Bush hold a similar view, or will the US get into ANOTHER armed conflict/war? From what I've heard, he and I are not of a like mind.

One final note (and favorite phrase from a book): The terrorists think that god is on their side. For their sake, I hope so, because they have angered a sleeping giant, and all the "power and rage of this country" shall be turned against these misguided souls. They got in a good second punch; unfortunately they are the 120 lb fighter who caught the heavyweight champion in the chin with that second punch.

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 12 September 2001).]