WINSPWW2?

[cbo]

math_villard said:
What about a Danish OOB (1930-1940)?

I have released this danish oob for old SPWW2v7.01

I'd like a Danish OOB for obvious reason - I'm Danish

Even though the Army only fought for a couple of hours in 1940 and again in 1943, it would be usefull for a Weserübung campaign (the German attack on Denmark/Norway) and what-ifs. After all, the Danish Army saw more figthting than the Swedes, who are already in the game (v. 7.x)

And the OOB should be extended to 8/43.

Claus B

[Mobhack]

cbo said:

I'd like a Danish OOB for obvious reason - I'm Danish

Even though the Army only fought for a couple of hours in 1940 and again in 1943, it would be usefull for a Weserübung campaign (the German attack on Denmark/Norway) and what-ifs. After all, the Danish Army saw more figthting than the Swedes, who are already in the game (v. 7.x)

And the OOB should be extended to 8/43.

Claus B

Claus

The Swedes got in as I recall, as an Ally for Finland. Some Expiditionary force or other.

Denmark might happen (as with Portugal, Brazil etc who fought in Italy), at a later release. But right now, I don't have a man week or so to spare to integrate a new OOB with the game, which is shortly about to go to playtesting anyway.

Can't think of any nations left out that actually fought in WW2 (e.g Switzerland, Turkey and Eire would never make it in).

Cheers
Andy

[cbo]

Mobhack said:

Claus

The Swedes got in as I recall, as an Ally for Finland. Some Expiditionary force or other.

AFAIK the Swedes sent military aid in the form of equipment, but never sent any forces. The Swedes that went to Finland were volunteers as were many Norwegians and Danes.
Denmark was probably closer to being an ally of Germany then Sweden was to Finland, as the Germans were allowed to raise a national Waffen-SS battalion - Freikorps Danmark - from recruiting offices in Denmark. Danish officers got permission to leave the Danish Army to serve in the Freikorps from King and goverment (promptly forgotten in 1945 of course ). Danish goverment ministers were even inspecting the unit in Germany.

I know, of course, that a Freikorps scenario could (and probably should) be made by using the German OOB. But if being a near ally of a WWII combatant is a criteria, the Danes should be in (on the wrong side, unfortunately, but still in )

Mobhack said:Denmark might happen (as with Portugal, Brazil etc who fought in Italy), at a later release. But right now, I don't have a man week or so to spare to integrate a new OOB with the game, which is shortly about to go to playtesting anyway.

No problem, just wanted to strike a blow for the ol' countrys chances of making the game if the powers that be decide to expand the roster

Claus B

[wulfir]

cbo said:
I'd like a Danish OOB for obvious reason - I'm Danish

I'd like a Danish OOB too, for obvious reasons - then one could fight Sweden vs Denmark battles. Just like in the good old days, eh...? I'm Swedish.

[Artur]

wulfir said:

I'd like a Danish OOB too, for obvious reasons - then one could fight Sweden vs Denmark battles. Just like in the good old days, eh...? I'm Swedish.

LOL. Neighbours are just the same...

Artur.

[Nox]

Having Swedish OOB in the game is unrealistic. Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland. And most sertanly Sweden was not an Ally to anyone. (Hence the word neutral country.) Finland did buy some weapons from Sweden but this is not the same as giving military support. Sweden did give humanitarian aid to Finland which was allowed for a neutral country to do. If Sweden is there already then why not add other neutral countries like Spain, Switzerland, etc. also?

I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.
Same thing for Swedish OOB 1930-1940.

[wulfir]

Nox said:
Having Swedish OOB in the game is unrealistic. Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland. And most sertanly Sweden was not an Ally to anyone. (Hence the word neutral country.) Finland did buy some weapons from Sweden but this is not the same as giving military support. Sweden did give humanitarian aid to Finland which was allowed for a neutral country to do. If Sweden is there already then why not add other neutral countries like Spain, Switzerland, etc. also?

I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.
Same thing for Swedish OOB 1930-1940.

I disagree with pretty much everything you've stated.

Swedish OOB unrealistic? I don't see how...? Sweden as a country existed during the war. The same goes for the other neutrals - Spain for example which is also in the game

Limiting OOBs to certain stop dates...? Why? So that no "what ifs" can be created - sounds like a hopeless crusade to me...

I'd support the inclusion of any country in the game, however minor it may have been. After all, it's not like anybody is forceing players to use them...

Lastly:

Nox said:Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland.

Are two puzzeling statements but interesting nonetheless. If you have the time it would be happy to hear what you base them on. PM me if you like...

[cbo]

Nox said:
I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

France was an occupied country, Poland was an occupied country, Holland was an occupied country... I could go on and on.

The fact is that Denmark was attacked by Germany on April 9th 1940 and there was a few hours of fighting in Jutland as well as in Copenhagen. There was fighting again in 1943 when the German Army decided to disarm and demobilize the Danish Army, also about half a day.
Of course, both occasions could be elaborated on with what-ifs and you could even make a two-battle campaign Or include the Danish debacle in a "Weserübung" campaign.

Nox said:If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.

Why? The Danish Army remained operational under the German occupation until August 1943.

As I said before, though Denmark was not a major combattant, at least the country did fight - as opposed to Sweden (but keep the Swedes in - we have scores to settle, particularily since the latest articles in Aftonbladet about Denmark ). So if participation is a criterum - then Denmark should be in - at some point.

Claus B

[Nox]

wulfir said:
Are two puzzeling statements but interesting nonetheless. If you have the time it would be happy to hear what you base them on. PM me if you like...

What I mean is that Sweden was neutral in 1941-1945. It was not in war whit any country. As for the military support. If you count the selling of ammunition and old guns. Then yes Sweden did give military support to Finland. However this was not done officialy or in so large scale that the Allies or the Russians would have wanted to declare war against Sweden. Neither did Sweden engage in actual fighting whit any country or deploy its forces to fight alongside other forces. A few thousand volunteers does not count for actual military support if you compare this to the weapons and military forces that were coming from Germany at the time. So at that time the official oppinion of all the major powers was that Sweden was not giving military support to Finland and that Sweden remained a neutral country.

Also Sweden as every other neutral country was not neutral just because it was not engaging in the war. The neutral treaty was an official writen document signed whit all the major forces (USA, Great Britain, USSR, Germany) and breaking it would have had wery serious consequences.

cbo said:
Why? The Danish Army remained operational under the German occupation until August 1943.

A few hours in 1940 and about a day of fighting in 1943 is not enough for a new OOB in my oppinion. Denmark as a country whit free will and political power did not exist during the time of German occupation so it should not be in the game, at least during the years of 1941-1945. I doubt the Danish Army was nothing more than a national puppet for the people to keep them happy. I cant see that they could have really attacked Germany or Sweden under the Danish flag in those years. Bottom line is that Denmark had capitulated in 1940.

IMHO every country in-game should seize to be available after they were conquered or turned neutral. Whatif scenarions can still be created using the Editor even if the country is unavailable for a random battle at that date.

[cbo]

Nox said:
A few hours in 1940 and about a day of fighting in 1943 is not enough for a new OOB in my oppinion. Denmark as a country whit free will and political power did not exist during the time of German occupation so it should not be in the game, at least during the years of 1941-1945.

Why 1941? What happened in 1941? Also, the Danish goverment did excercise a large degree of control until 1943.

Nox said:I doubt the Danish Army was nothing more than a national puppet for the people to keep them happy. I cant see that they could have really attacked Germany or Sweden under the Danish flag in those years. Bottom line is that Denmark had capitulated in 1940.

But German attacked the Danish Army in 1943. The Army had most of its weapons available and was primarily disarmed because the German military command in Denmark did not want to have it in their rear in case of an allied invasion.

Nox said:
IMHO every country in-game should seize to be available after they were conquered or turned neutral. Whatif scenarions can still be created using the Editor even if the country is unavailable for a random battle at that date.

So France should be removed in June 1940?

I dont think your ideas quite manage to reflect how complex the political situation was in Europe during WWII and your suggestions would remove the possibility of many odd and interesting encounters. I guess I take quite the opposite point of view. Rather than reducing the game to a limited number of countries available at very limited periods, it should be expanded as much as the developers have the time and energy for. Once you've played your 253rd German vs US encounter, that tends to get a bit old, so being able to do something odd like Belgium vs Italy in Etheopia 1941 or Denmark vs Germany in 1943 is what adds flavour to the game and, together with the many SPCAMO improvements, makes it playable still, 10 years after it first came out.

Claus B