Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up?

[Dizzy]

I've heard peeps complain that once big ships and big mounts are available, little ships are no more. What kinds of things can be done to make little ships competitive and worth while? I have a cpl ideas, but am no modder so I dont know if it's feasable.

Could smaller ship classes be given a vehiclesize ability that allows for lesser maintenance costs?

Perhaps mounts can be revised so as to not allow the big ships so much of a weapon hardware advantage?

Perhaps more of a natural ecm bonus.

Mb make a manuevering thrusters component only for smaller ships that add extra combat movement. Mb smaller ships can be equipped with more engines?

What other ideas are there?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

All those ideas are feasable, unless I'm highly mistaken. Look in the data files - Something like 'abilities.txt'. It's been a while since I've poked around them.

1) Yep, one of the abilities that can be used on ships is a maintanence reduction.

2) Certainly. All data files are text files; you'd just have to change some text files. Can't quite remember the name - 'somethingmounts.txt'.

3) Little ships already have this; you'd just have to increase it. 'vehiclesize.txt', I think.

4a) Yep. Just make it too large to use, then make a mount for the smaller ships by setting the minimum and maximum size of the ship the mount can be used with to the range of smaller ships you want to use it with.

4b) Yep. There's a default setting for number of engines that can be put on a hull.

You could also give them a to-hit bonus.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. Cheese?

[Atrocities]

You would have to mod them to be useful.

[Dizzy]

Hi atrocities. I LUV your shipsets and mods. Big fan here. I've DLed a bunch of your work... Very cool stuff. I've modded for SFC Orion Pirates and I know its TIME consuming... wtg.

narf poit chez BOOM said:You could also give them a to-hit bonus.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. Cheese?

Like what bonus? And thx for the info!

I'm slowly grasping the intricacies of modding this stuff. Rollo gave me some points tonight. Nice guy. Very knowledgeable.

I think I'll throw together some of these ideas and see where they lead. Anyone else have anymore ideas? Any suggestions would be very helpful.

[Atrocities]

Thank you. Glad you are enjoying the sets.


A lot of people have considered adding bonuses to smaller ships such as abilities added to the hull sizes like more manuverablity, built in ECM or armor values. Added movement ability. Added combat movement ability... assuming that it does not interfer with stock engine component.

Lower maintenance costs.. on the flip side make larger ships way more expensive.

Give smaller hulls the ability to hit offense, with the defense hit bonus... Less likely to be hit.

[Suicide Junkie]

I like the system I made for gritecon.

Using required mounts and maintenance modifiers on the hulls, the build cost is made to rise FASTER than the size of the hull. Maintenance is made to rise SLOWER, taking into account the higher cost of the components.

In Gritecon, build cost is equal to size cubed.
So an 800kt ship takes the same amount of time to build as eight 400kt ships.
However, that 800kt ship costs about the same as a single 400kt ship.

Big ships are thusly great to have around, but they're really hard to make.
Overall, you've gotta find a balance. If you are at peace, or winning with relatively few losses, then you build bigger ships so that you can increase your tonnage-in-the field without paying more maintenance. If you start losing, then you can build smaller ships, and get more tonnage per turn to throw into the meat grinder.

[Dizzy]

I think the following things could easily be done in a balanced fashion that would really make keeping around smaller class vessels something you'd really consider doing. Plus is all this stuff can be done relatively quickly and easily all in the VehicleSize.txt making it quick and painless and something the AI wont have trouble taking advantage of.

Atrocities said:Built in ECM. Ships harder to hit/easier to hit enemies.

Found these Abilities:

Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Combat To Hit Offense Plus

Added movement ability.

Found this Ability:

Extra Movement Generation (dont think I'd go here... Maybe allow use of more engines instead so it's an advantage that'd have to be paid for by structure.)

Added combat movement ability... assuming that it does not interfer with stock engine component.

Found this ability:

Combat Movement

Lower maintenance costs.

Found this ability:

Modified Maintenance Cost

Probably the last thing to do... to make it really balanced... would be to sift thru all the mounts in your mod and adjust them so that bigger ships dont get all these glorious percentage mount advantages over the littler hulls. I think that'd complete the package.

I also see what you're saying, Suicide Junkie, but I'd probably not want to go there. I surely wouldnt want to wait that long to get a bigger ship. I dont think there's enouigh payoff in it in the short term... or the long term for that matter. Especially if you do what I'm suggesting to the vehiclesize and mounts.

[Fyron]

Make sure to skim through SEIV Modding 101.

[Dizzy]

Ok, here's how I did it. Looks good on paper, but unsure if it all works.

Name := Escort
Short Name := Escort
Description :=
Code := ES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 50%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 50%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 8
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Corvette
Short Name := Corvette
Description :=
Code := CT
Primary Bitmap Name := Corvette
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 200
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 40%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 40
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 40% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 40
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 40%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -40
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 7
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Frigate
Short Name := Frigate
Description :=
Code := FG
Primary Bitmap Name := Frigate
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 250
Cost Minerals := 250
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 30%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 30
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Smaller size makes ship 30% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 30%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -30
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Destroyer
Short Name := Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DS
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 300
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 25%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 25
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 25% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 25
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Heavy Destroyer
Short Name := Heavy Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DH
Primary Bitmap Name := DestroyerHeavy
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 350
Cost Minerals := 350
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 20%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 20% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 20
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Light Cruiser
Short Name := Light Cruiser
Description :=
Code := LC
Primary Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 400
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 15%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 15
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 15% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Efficient ship design and small crew decrease maintenance costs by 20%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -20
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Cruiser
Short Name := Cruiser
Description :=
Code := CR
Primary Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 500
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 2
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 2
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 5
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

[Dizzy]

Imperator Fyron said:
Make sure to skim through SEIV Modding 101.

Skimming, I miss something?