ME262 wrong guns? - Page 2

scJazz · #11 July 11th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Ya my comment on homogeneous ammo mixes was a mix up. I was remembering something totally different for that part. I'm going to review the info in those sites and consider this some more but I still say that the AP qualities of the german 'tater-tosser shells (what we referred to these weapons as in Aces High II and Warbirds) is still far inferior to the 20mm Hispano/M2. More later...

scJazz · #12 July 11th, 2006, 05:29 PM

I thought those links looked familiar. Admittedly I haven't placed Aces High or Warbirds in awhile but the Nildram site is used as a references in AH and I'm fairly certain that the designer plays.

If I remember correctly the arguement for better AP performance for the 20mm Hispano is that it has a better muzzle velocity and better ballistic properties so that it retains its velocity. While the muzzle velocity of the german 20mm and 30mm are not incredibly bad their ballistic properties are and they suffered fairly steep velocity drop off.

In Aces High II where all the planes you mentioned are modeled you don't go firing the 20/30mm guns at a target beyond 400m unless you have zero deflection while pulling zero Gs on a totally unsuspecting target and even then you have to go so nose high that you can't see the target.

On the other hand shooting stuff up with a Typhoon or even better... the F4U-1C (4 x 20mm M2s with huge pile of ammo) is rediculously easy out to 700m and not so tuff out to 1000m.

chuckfourth · #13 July 14th, 2006, 07:56 AM

Hi scJazz
The "better ballistics" of the Hispano should in the game be modeled by the range of the gun being longer than the german equivalant weapon, not by having a better penetration value. The penetration value of 4 is for range point blank where not ballistics but weight of shot and Muzzle velocity (MV) are the main factors. So the argument should really be is the MV/weight combination of the MG 151 and Hispano so different to justify dropping a penetration point? probably not. Certainly before the version 6 upgrade the designers had them the same.
Best Regards Chuck.

Mobhack · #14 July 14th, 2006, 09:53 AM

Range is completely irrelevant for class 11 aircraft guns.

- They use HE-AP values (see mobhack on class 11 wepons for details) which is range-neutral not "The penetration value of 4 is for range point blank where not ballistics but weight of shot and Muzzle velocity (MV) are the main factors"
- They are fired at 2 fixed ranges in the aircraft strafe/bomb animation sequence, or at several points at the same range as area fire in the MBT circling gunship sequence.

Therefore, apart from making sure that the range is at least these values, range is an irrelevance for air cannons on the game engine.

Cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #15 July 15th, 2006, 09:06 AM

Hi Andy thanks for your reply,
Ok I see because the planes are firing at the targets at 250 and 200 metres the balistics aren't relevent, fair enough. However I would have thought that at this close range the same would go for accuracy. ie Hispano or MG151 both on the button at 250m? I notice that SPCAMO and I agree on this in v6 of the game when both weapons had an accuracy of 8, however in the v7 rework of aicraft the accuracy of the hispano becomes 21 and the 151/20 becomes 14, shouldnt they have the same accuracy if we are firing them at a target that is so close? Not forgetting of course that most in-wing weapons are aimed so that there fire converges on a spot about 250m or so in front of the aircraft.
Best regards Chuck.

Mobhack · #16 July 15th, 2006, 09:31 AM

you could make a case for accuracy, but given the fixed short engagement ranges, it is unlikely to make much noticeable difference in the game. FC and RF is as likely to make any differences, and the 3 have a complex interweaved relationship that is difficult to get "right". Then throw in pilot experience as well.

I think the plane cannons are fine in game terms. But if you feel like making some range-test scenarios and trying out different data, feel free to do so.

Cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #17 July 17th, 2006, 06:11 AM

Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply, Ive begun testing and turned up some stuff you'll be interested in. But before I proceed Ive got a couple of questions
Would you be able to tell me how does suppression effect Acc, FC and RF?
and -really just because I find it interesting,-
Why did someone take the trouble to increase all the accuracy and range values of all the aircraft weapons in the game when it doesnt make any difference to anything?
Best regards Chuck.

Mobhack · #18 July 17th, 2006, 06:22 AM

Supression will tend to lower accuracy.

Quote:

Why did someone take the trouble to increase all the accuracy and range values of all the aircraft weapons in the game when it doesnt make any difference to anything?

It does affect things, but is not the sole factor, obviously. The OOB design team probably included them in their cannon mods of 3 or 4 years ago?.

Cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #19 July 17th, 2006, 07:28 AM

Hi Andy
Those changes came into effect on 30th August 2004, that would be about 1 year 11 months ago.
Yes thats right I would also imagine that the accuracy changes would "affect things" as you say. As you agree that at the short ranges concerned the guns should actually all have the same accuracy and they currently dont, wouldnt it be safest to just give them all the same accurracy? as they used to have until DOS v7 of the game?
Obviously I am happy to supply all the relevant weapon numbers, unit numbers, edit oobs or whatever if that helps.

I guess we still dont know why the OOB design team made these, as it would appear now, inappropriate accuracy changes?
Best Regards chuck.

DRG · #20 July 17th, 2006, 10:58 PM

Andy has already said.."...it is unlikely to make much noticeable difference in the game." and "I think the plane cannons are fine in game terms. "

Now, if you're happy to tinker with the OOB's then that fine.. be my guest, that's what MOBHack was included for but you don't seem to want to do this, what you want is for US to do this when we don't see the need to do so.

This is very simple. We have no plans to alter the existing OOB's in any way in the forseable future. OK ? We have an WinSPMBT update planned for the late fall-early winter then........who knows? I do know neither Andy or I will be digging through WinSPWW2 OOB's changing air cannon stats we don't think are a problem so PLEASE just give this a rest.

Don