kwk 38 cannon or machinegun

[Mobhack]

Chuck

The panzer 2s have 36 bursts for its 20mm autocannon. Various versions have slightly more or less allocated to HE or AP/APCR but you usually have 16 to 20 AP bursts in the mix (about 5 being APCR where fitted), and not the 10 you are claiming.

All autocannon have been reworked to bursts, in both WW2 and MBT, so they no longer have the "fire all day" ability of SP1 and SP2. Also involved in this was a recalculation of the terminal effects of bursts for both HE and AP. That is the way the oobs are, and this will not be changed.

As usual - you want a particular viewpoint. In this case that the thing is a single shot weapon which can fire all day. If that is your particular world view then as usual, you have the solution avalable to you that we always suggest - we provide the Mobhack editor for this purpose. Simply edit the ammo loads to whay you believe they should be, and then adjust the terminal effects to be for single shots (not bursts, or for 3 round (say) bursts) and then run the oobs through the cost calculator. Also - remeber to edit any that are marked as "autocannon" class to normal guns etc. If you then think these OOBS are worth sharing with the user community - then release them as "chucks modified OOBS" or suchlike.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Or simply run your game with the V6 OOB's since these seem to be the ones you prefer. I have modified the AC guns in the master OOBs to "5 round bursts" to match the tank guns. That's the way that weapon in our OOB's will be handled and that's as far as I'm going with this. If you disagree ( as I'm sure you do ) then follow Andys advise and release your own OOB set.

Don

[cbo]

First of all, the point of my post was to show how the game actually works and what data is actually at play. I'm not "apologizing for the phantom OOB designers" as you suggest, I'm pointing out how the game currently works. People reading your post could easily get the impression that you knew what you were talking about, which is evidently not the case.

I'm also pointing to some of the limited sources that actually deal with the problem at hand to counter your arguments which are, as usual, only based on your opinion.

chuckfourth said:
As chief apologist for these phantom OOB designers you should know that these changes all came into place after v6 of the DOS version.

Actually, some things have changed since DOS V7 was released. Some vehicles now model 5 round bursts, not 9 round, there have been changes in the composition of the ammo load etc.

chuckfourth said:I would like to see a reference for this statement I would think the magazines would contain either HE or AP.

Would you be able to share these combat reports with us Clause?

They can be found in Jentz: "Panzertruppen..." vol. I. As usual, I dont really care what you think, I'm more interested in what documentation can be dug up to shed light on the issue at hand. Do you have anything other than your own opinions to support the changes you want made to the game?

chuckfourth said: Again replacing the weapons primary function with its secondary function resulting in a huge performance loss. How often did these vehicles fire at aircraft ?

I dont know. Do you?

chuckfourth said: I notice you have convieniently missed out the ammo loadout for 234/1, its 480 rounds.

How exactly did I "miss" that? It is in the list I posted between the 231(8) and 250/9.

FWIW, I think the 9 round burst thing introduced in V7 was wrong, as it reduced the combat effectiveness of vehicles (not only the German ones) with autocannons way below what their actual combat performance would suggest. Clearly, at some point OOB designers have thought so as well, as the Panzer IIs are now modelled as firing 5-round bursts

Whether bursts of 5 rounds or 3 rounds or something else is the "right" number can be debated ad nauseam (as I'm sure it will be ) but as Narwan says, it is really a pointless discussion. The real issue is how to model the gun (and any other autocannon) in a way that take into account its dual-fire nature. We all know that you want single round fire and that you have wanted that since you brought up the issue the first time 20 months or so ago. So far, you havent brought forward any actual evidence on how the gun was used.
I think your idea about how the gun was used is wrong and I have some hard data to back that opinion up. If you can come up with some good evidence (as opposed to opinion) as to why it should be different, go ahead and share.

Claus B

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
First nowhere have I claimed that panzer 2 has 10 bursts I have been using sdkfz 222 as my example which does have 10 bursts which is obviosly, patently ridiculous, unless of course it is an anti aircraft unit which it isnt. I have chosen this unit for my example as having had an extreme reduction in ammo loadout it best illustrates the points I am making. the same problems exist with pz 2 but to a lesser degree.

No with single shots it can't fire all day it can fire for about one hour (180 loadout).

Dont forget Ive already shown you where a completely ficticous formation(mech inf coy) and unit (armoured mortar) can be found in your OOB, would anyone have cared if they were missing from some obscure OOB id posted? Because I perserverd with those two mistakes now everyone can enjoy a more realistic OOB. So when I hear the old "use Mobhack" to me this sounds like "get lost were not interested". Isnt this forum for discussing your game isnt that what I am doing? I might point out that these current changes I am suggesting arnt my particular viewpoint. I am pointing out where your OOB and reality dont match. In this case in particular I have pointed out that the cost of using bursts is very high in performance terms, I notice that none of the posters disagreeing with me addressed these points perhaps you could? Ive listed them below for you, Also I notice that yes I am correct in what I am saying ACs have been changed down to 5 round bursts, would this have happened if I hadnt started this thread?

So my question to you Andy is "What are the changes to terminal effects that are meant to compensate for the decrease in available shots? you can answer this by addressing the points below

Only one AP round in each burst actually has an opportunity to penetrate the target.
The number of soft targets that can be destroyed is reduced.
When firing single shots each successive shot is more accurate, As each shot is now a burst, all "extra" shots in a burst are wasted when aquiring a target.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
The reason I mention v6 is that Clause intimated that noone knows who or why or when these changes came about. So i thought that I could help him by pointing out when the changes occoured then maybe the person responsible could say yes thats right I did that because these weapons can only fire automatic or whatever.
Depending on what the terminal effect adjustment actually are I think most people would agree that 3 round HE bursts and single shot AP would be the best solution, making the old 90 90 loadout into 30 90. But thanks for giving the ACs some more bursts, 234/1 should be 48 48.
Best regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Claus
Well Well Well no reference for your alternate HE AP Magazine Ammo loadout? A convienient fiction perhaps? ,As Usual? Just your opinion, as Usual? dont know what your talking about, as Usual?
Chuck

[cbo]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Claus
Well Well Well no reference for your alternate HE AP Magazine Ammo loadout? A convienient fiction perhaps? ,As Usual? Just your opinion, as Usual? dont know what your talking about, as Usual?
Chuck

Hey, that is my line

Anyway, first you missed the 234/1 data in my first post, now you missed the reference adressing this issue, stated in my last post.

I wonder whether you have a reading disability or deliberately misread peoples posts to get attention? If it is the former, you have my sympathy, if it is the latter, it is trolling, something which you should avoid on this board, as I believe it can get you kicked out.

Claus B

[Pyros]

Gentlemen,

Please, try to avoid personal attacks.

cheers,
Pyros

[chuckfourth]

Hi Clause
There are 280 pages and I cant find anything about mixed ammo loadout, would you be so kind as to give me the page number where it says kwk 38 used mixed ammo loadout in its magazines?
Chuck.

[cbo]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Clause
There are 280 pages and I cant find anything about mixed ammo loadout, would you be so kind as to give me the page number where it says kwk 38 used mixed ammo loadout in its magazines?

Considering your attitude - no. You just read on and find it yourself like the rest of us have to do

Claus B