Useless or redundant units?

[Epaminondas]

Hi, first time poster--so please be kind!

Anyways, I have been playing the demo for a while now, and I am wondering why there are so many seemingly useless and redundant units. By "useless," I mean those units are so awful that you would hardly use them unless they are free; by "redundant," I mean those units that are not awful but whose roles are better served by other units.

Here are some examples of such units, and I am wondering if people agree with me or whether I am not using them properly. Further, I would welcome if people can suggest other units that may fall into this category--as I have only thus far played those nations that are unlocked for the Demo.

Let me begin with the two nations that I play most: Arcos and Kaliasa.

Arcos:

*Icaryds: What is the purpose of this unit? Given that Arcos lacks reliable missile troops, I can see why a flyer could help in the missile troops/mage suppression department in the early game. But we have two problems. First, Arcos does have a wonderful--if over-priced--flyer in the Wind Rider. Second, even considering that the Wind Rider is over-priced and cannot always be massed, the Icaryds are inadequate for the job. They have poor attack skills so they won't be able to kill much, and they have low protection (for Arcos), so they can't tie down enemy missile troops/mages either. Against a decent-sized army, they last basically one or two rounds, do very little damage, and then are obliterated. I suppose you can say they work as cannon fooder, but they are too expensive at 18g for that role as well. So what's up with these guys?

*Chariot/Chariot Archer: It isn't that these guys are horrible; they are subpar but serviceable. It's just that I don't see these guys doing anything that the Wind Riders cannot do and do it better. The basic problem is this: If you have a very powerful flying cavalry, why do you need a lesser cavalry? I do concede, however, that in later turns where cash is overflowing and you've maxed out your Wind Rider production, you could use these guys. But when you reach that point, wouldn't an HP 10 cavalry that is not a flier be obsolete anyways?

Kaliasa

*Markata Archer: These guys are absolutely the worst units I've tried to use. As with most super-cheap troops, they die fast. These guys are cannon fodder par excellence. The problem is, missile troops are not supposed to be cannon fodder. Or at least they should be able to fire at least one volley. But they often cannot even do that, because their small bow (the epitome of sucky weaponage) won't let them get off a volley, even when you stick them at the front of the tactical battle map.

I also feel the same about the Markatas. 5 HP melee-are you kidding me? I appreciate the need for cannon fodder, but 5 HPs with no protection is too little even for cannon fodder.

*Guhyaka/Yavana: I feel the sacred melees of Kaliasa utterly useless. The problem is their near-nakedness, their protection 1 armor or non-armor. Should 35g-40g sacred infantries be this vulnerable? Other than the fact that they are blessable, their basic melee stats are only marginally better than the considerably cheaper Bandar Swordsmen, other than the plus 5 HP and plus 1/4 Def (which is balanced out somewhat by the plus 9 protection the Bandar Swordsman enjoy).

Now possible solutions?

I don't see how the Icaryds can be improved without buffing them to the point where they become indistinguishable from the Wind Riders, minus the pegasi. Perhaps less is better in this case, and the unit should never have been conceived.

The Chariots need to be slightly buffed. How about adding about 3 HPs to account for the horses? As a related matter, I think all cavalry should receive such HP boost--which is consistent with the trend in other games where cavalry usually has more HPs than infantry.

As for the Markatas and Markata Archers, again, they are just too pathetic. Why not remove them altogether? The Atavis are comparable to the cannon fodder units of other nations.

Finally, the Yavana melees can easily be balanced by giving them *some* armor. I know it's hot on Kaliasa but even Indians (whom the nation is based, it seems) armor! Why not give them at least a leather equivalent?

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts, and please be gentle to a newb

[Quietly]

well, for arcosphale:
I do buy icaryds, because I use a mass pegasus strategy

pegasus knights are size 4, so only 1 fits in a square... however, a size 2 icaryd can fit in along side them, so after I have a surplus of money, or a screenfull of pegasus knights, I add icaryds, slightly more than 1:1 ratio of icaryd to pegasus, increases their damage output significantly, and dramatically reduces the amount they are outnumbered by, since you have 2 targets per combat square instead of one.

chariots trample, and presumably have a place when facing a mass of little infantry... sure the pegasus knights fight better one on one, but the chariots will clear people out a lot faster trampling all over them. I do think the chariot archers kinda are rather pointless =p

[st.patrik]

I don't have answers for many of your points, but I think you're wrong about the Yavanas of Kailasa. With the right blessing these guys mop up in melee. The trick is just getting them into melee, which can be accomplished a few different ways, such as by having a screen of markatas in small groups out in front, and/or armoured Bandar warriors (which deal with arrows much better).

Try a water 9 blessing and screens of weaker troops to draw fire, and you'll be impressed with what the Yavanas can accomplish.

[quantum_mechani]

There are actually a lot of very redundant or useless units in dominions, however most of the ones you mention are not.

Icarids are indeed rather difficult to find a niche for, even with modding. Chariots are not really redundant with wind riders, but they are little overpriced.

Markatas are servicable for taking lance hits/decoying, and the archers are usable with flaming arrows.

The Kailasa sacreds are actually very good, so long as you protect them from archers with some air on your bless, or just lots of decoying.

[Talleyrand]

I will go through and try to find it but I remember one faction in the Early Age having two units that were exactly alike, down to their looks, costs, stats, and equipment pieces. It must have been a mistake to include them both.

[quantum_mechani]

Talleyrand said:
I will go through and try to find it but I remember one faction in the Early Age having two units that were exactly alike, down to their looks, costs, stats, and equipment pieces. It must have been a mistake to include them both.

Probabaly Helhiem's two Helhirdlings, the noncapital only one is indeed a mistake.

[Talleyrand]

Aye, I just checked. You're right.

[Nerfix]

Kailasas sacreds get Awe which is better than armor, and they have high Def from what I remember. And they can get blessed for even higher def or Air shield.

[Twan]

Chariots trample and cost 3 times less gold than wind riders, so I don't see them as useless. Chariots will be used with "attack rear" to kill indep infantry since the first turns, 125g wind riders will be made later in the game and used with "attack archers" it's not exactly the same thing. Icarids may complete a wind rider group (as you need more than 4 units to avoid too frequent morale checks it's good to have some cheaper flying units to add when you start to use the very expensive wind riders). Chariot archers are the only archers of Arcocephale, but too expensive I agree.

Markatas are size 1 when the good melee troops (bandars) are size 3. As each attack gives -2 to defense even if they miss, using markatas in addition to bandars isn't a bad idea. And if you can BE or luck them markatas may become really annoying as your ennemies will waste 2 or 3 attacks to kill totally expandable units.
The only thing not to make with markatas IMO is to use them as arrow catchers. A single arrow will kill one in most cases, they make the ennemies waste far more damage if they reach melee.

Markatas archers... hum... ok nothing to do with them, except to hope they will be targeted by "attack archers" instead of your longbow squad.

PS : the cruel thing for bandar nations is to start with markata archers instead of real ones. They make the starting army not usable before turn 3 (or even 4 if you have a big sloth scale) when most other nations may take a province in turn 2. I'd like to see a pack of atavi or vanaras archers instead.

[Leif_-]

Twan said:
Chariot archers are the only archers of Arcocephale, but too expensive I agree.

Something they share with pretty much all cavalry with bows. The lack of a "skirmish" command pretty much means that infantry archers are always going to be better value than their cavalry counterparts.