Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Graeme Dice]

Shovah32 said:
So im guessing chariots remove alot of mirror images, skeletons protect the flanks and when the 2 forces meet the larger ctissian force of skeletons and slaves overwhelms the now weakened van force?

It's also a comparison of EA Vanheim and C'Tis, which is quite a bit less one-sided than EA Helheim vs. C'Tis. Van's sacreds go berserk once hit, losing them both their mirror images and several points of defense at the same time.

[NTJedi]

Edi said:
Bull****. A newbie player who jumps into a big game with very experienced players will get what's coming and that's probably a sound stomping.

Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!

Edi said:
At least he'll learn from it. The obvious solution is to play with people more in your own league until you get the hang of it before you try slugging it out against the big boys.

Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Edi said:
My first MP was against a fairly experienced bunch of people and I actually managed to finish fourth out of eight, but that was due to a lot of things, luck as well. My second, I got stomped.

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

Edi said:
Lamest excuse ever for not tweaking something obviously too strong down a notch or two so that it will only be strong instead of ridiculously strong.

Edi

There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

[Zebion]

I got stomped once,about to get stomped twice,learned some new strategies in the process with two nations.


Also learned starting with nearly Pure swamplands nearby usually spells doom for gold reserves , but one does have to press on to learn , whether through victory (To find processes that work) or defeat (to find what plain out doesn't work)

[Valandil]

Hmmm. Stupid test I realize, but interesting nontheless.

25 W9 F9 Helhirdings, 3 Hangadrotts (!).

25 E9 N9 Living Pillars. Warriors of Muspelheim (!!!). The uber-king-of-basalt-doom that cast the warriors then ordered to retreat.
3 basalt kings with boots of behemoth, no buffs.


The vanir routed, taking 8 losses.
4 pillars died.
so did all three kings.

Note: even this crazy test ends up in helheim's favour.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, first of all, beware the Valks, the very first test game I ran, I forgot about valkyries and let's just say it's not fun to watch 8 units worth 4000gold get killed in one battle just because you don't have a good rear guard.

Second thing, Atlantis automatically has a big advantage over Helheim because you don't have to worry about them hitting you while you take over the sea, in the meantime you can research like crazy and attack them with 10-1 odds at your leisure. As long as your smart (not like me with the Valks) and pick them apart, Helheim doesn't stand a chance against EA Atlantis in a 1 on 1 fight. This should hold true even in multiplayer, as long as the player playing Atlantis is experienced and patient.

More to come on this subject as I do more tests, but for now, if you know you're going to face Helheim, Atlantis is a great counter, and while Van can cross the sea, they can't enter the sea, so it should hold true for Van as well.

[HoneyBadger]

By the way, I favor an imprisoned Wyrm with E10/N9 for Atlantis vs Helheim, with Luck 2, Growth 1, the rest of the scales at -3, and Dom 5. My Wyrm is imprisoned, which gives me lots of time to research Enchantment, for personal regeneration, etc. Growth and Luck are very important because this is going to be a battle of attrition, which is where Helheim really lacks. Their blessed sacreds are very powerful, it's true, but with W9/F9 you know you're not going to face a Dom10 pretender, Dom is going to be around 4 at most, which means not too many sacred troops coming out at a time, and roughly half of those should be valkyries, because they're so useful, and valkyries aren't as tough as Hangedrott calvalry.
E10 gives me plenty of prot for both my pretender and my Basalt Kings, and better than prot, it gives me +5 rejuvenation, which my Kings need because they're beautiful spell platforms and great fighters, and it means they can outlast the Vans in a fight, magical or physical. The nature 9 is good for regeneration and berserk, but this could easily be something else, astral for multiplayer or water or even death. I like it because of the spells which add to the attrition factor, like Gift of Health, because it makes my sacreds tougher and lets me build amulets of rejuvenation, and because I can create a very efficient supply-chain for my troops, while their troops are suffering from starvation and disease.

[Graeme Dice]

HoneyBadger said:
Their blessed sacreds are very powerful, it's true, but with W9/F9 you know you're not going to face a Dom10 pretender, Dom is going to be around 4 at most, which means not too many sacred troops coming out at a time, and roughly half of those should be valkyries, because they're so useful, and valkyries aren't as tough as Hangedrott calvalry.

F9W9 Father of winters with order 3, sloth 3, cold 1, death 3, misfortune 3, drain 1 and dominion 9. It uses the scales that can be set negative with no real ill effects.

[alexti]

Talking about Atlantis, you don't really need to defeat Vanheim in a straight battle, as long as you can raid sufficiently successful to ruin Vans economy you'll eventually win.

[Corwin]

HoneyBadger said:
Ok, first of all, beware the Valks, the very first test game I ran, I forgot about valkyries and let's just say it's not fun to watch 8 units worth 4000gold get killed in one battle just because you don't have a good rear guard.

Second thing, Atlantis automatically has a big advantage over Helheim because you don't have to worry about them hitting you while you take over the sea, in the meantime you can research like crazy and attack them with 10-1 odds at your leisure. As long as your smart (not like me with the Valks) and pick them apart, Helheim doesn't stand a chance against EA Atlantis in a 1 on 1 fight. This should hold true even in multiplayer, as long as the player playing Atlantis is experienced and patient.

More to come on this subject as I do more tests, but for now, if you know you're going to face Helheim, Atlantis is a great counter, and while Van can cross the sea, they can't enter the sea, so it should hold true for Van as well.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. 1 vs 1 Helheim will eat EA atlantis for breakfast, as song as there is reasonable proportion of land to ocean provinces, like on standard MP maps. If you don't believe me we can play 1 vs 1 blitz with me playing Helheim and you playing EA Atlantis. I can promise you'll get your *** on the plate though, since the game would be very lopsided. Vanheim has always been my favorite nation in Dom, and I hate to say it, but to be honest I have to say that they did become stronger in Dom3.

(Note that I am not saying they should be nerfed, just commenting on Helheim vs Atlantis scenario)

BTW I am not sure if you have played much against good helheim players HoneyBadger. It does not make much sense to spend huge amount of points on W9/F9 and to have dominion 4. The minimum dominion level f9/W9 Helheim should be playing is 6 or higher, and you can easily get it without crippling yourself too much.

[Aseth]

Shovah32 said:
So im guessing chariots remove alot of mirror images, skeletons protect the flanks and when the 2 forces meet the larger ctissian force of skeletons and slaves overwhelms the now weakened van force?

no, Slaves & Skels was set a bit forward as meatshield, and Chariots was on the flancs scripted "hold & attack closest", so they not only remove mirror images - but kill with trample almost all Van,and skels finish survived(2-6) Vans...

i`ll run other test`s within 12 hours or so...