Dud units / monsters / summons

Sombre · #1 April 21st, 2007, 10:39 PM

This thread was inspired by Xietor's complaints about the pale ones, dicussion about 'dud nations', discussion of the CB mod and the changes it makes and a number of other things people have said on here. I really hate the idea of dud units in a game, but in Dom3 it seems there are many. Actually I think quite a few are fixed in the CB mod, but for the moment let's see what we can agree on.

So, which units are duds? They can be summoned, recruitable, indies etc.

Couple of things other people have said on here before, just to get the ball rolling...

- EA Ulmish warriors who have two weapons but bad ambidexterity bonus leaving them wit awful attack.

- Pale One soldiers for MA Agartha have terrible attack and numerous other problems (including old age?) there's a thread about this.

- Spear armed huskarl of Helheim (I think) is never ever worth buying because his nearest equivalents are much better at very little change of cost.

And remember to say /why/ you think they're duds :]

HoneyBadger · #2 April 21st, 2007, 11:29 PM

I have a rather controversial one. I would say the basic Niefel soldier (the guy with the axe, not the jarl) is a dud. Yes, they're extremely tough troops, and yes, they're sacred, and yes, they can be *used*-in very large combats, and to support PD, but I wouldn't say they're very use*ful*-and they're the only Niefel troop you ever get besides the Jarl. What's the point of that? Why not more variety and interest here?

It's, after all, *Niefel*heim. I almost never use them, because they're an expensive dead-end. They have some use in the game, but not nearly as much, for me, as a Niefel Jarl. If there were other factors-like more appropriate (read: "specialized") equipment, for instance, I'd use and enjoy them a lot more.

As it is, I hardly ever use *any* Niefel troops, except for the Niefel Jarl, the Huskarl, and the javelin-thrower, and there's something wrong with that.

I'm planning on modding in a Niefel Jotun that uses a wooley rhinocerous for a mount, and another that uses a flail in combat and does area damage. A third may throw large balls of ice, and a fourth will be better armored, weild a war-hammer, and do extra fortress-damage. Ofcourse, they'll all be very, very expensive, but I don't have a problem with that-I may even try to figure out a spell that replaces a Jotun Jarl on foot with a Jotun Jarl on an ice-drake.

Edi · #3 April 22nd, 2007, 02:30 AM

Heartily seconded on EA Ulm. There's something seriously wrong when a nation of supposedly ferocious barbarian warriors is reduced to using armies composed solely of its women to get anywhere, leaving the men home to tend the children and farms. The only exceptions to that are the iron and steel warriors, who use 2-handed weapons.

Increased attack skill and ambidexterity bonuses would take care of this.

Sombre · #4 April 22nd, 2007, 02:40 AM

Yep, I read about that, tested it and found it to be true. There's very little point in using anything but the women.

I'm very tempted to make a CBMplus version which 'fixes' this, among other things (like bakemono size etc etc). One of the reasons I want to hear about more units people find to be useless.

Sombre · #5 April 22nd, 2007, 06:02 AM

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

Sombre · #6 April 22nd, 2007, 06:02 AM

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

Sandman · #7 April 22nd, 2007, 06:28 AM

The Lord Warden.

It's not that he's especially bad, but he's capital-only and can't compete with Crones or Daughters of Avalon. He's a stealthy leader, but the Mother of Avalon has the same leadership level and decent magic to boot.

Endoperez · #8 April 22nd, 2007, 07:46 AM

Flagellants are exceptional with Fire 9 bless. Flail has two attacks, they get +4 att -> they hit with both attacks and deal the fire damage twice.

Sombre · #9 April 22nd, 2007, 09:19 AM

Even with fire bless I can't see them being that good to be honest - I mean if you put a heavy enough bless on any sacred it's going to be good, but then you have a whole other cost to consider. Flaggies as a base still have random afflictions, no protection etc and you are still seriously limited in how many you can recruit - that isn't so bad for elite units but flaggies are chaff and you need a lot of them just to get past the swarms of arrows and aoe spells to do damage.

I could be wrong about them though. I'm not an experienced marignon player. I do know I made upgraded flaggies with no random afflictions which were freespawned for a mod nation of mine (Ulm Reborn) and even with F9 bless they weren't winning the game for me,.. I had a LOT of them too, far more than I'd be able to get recruiting them with the holy cap.

Managarm · #10 April 22nd, 2007, 09:43 AM

I've been playing Marignon for a while and I found Flaggies with a F9 Bless very good despite their afflictions. Maybe they aren't top notch, but they can be recruited anywhere. With proper Dominion you can recruit enough of them to cover front lines, acting both as arrow catchers and breaking the enemy lines if they get close enough to enter in melee.

Now I'm playing with C'Tis and I think that Militias are rather weak. OK, they're dirty cheap at 7 gold and 2 resources, but taking into account that Light Infantries get a shield and a javelin for 3 extra gold and resources...