Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[HoneyBadger]

I've come to the conclusion that they are somewhat unbalanced. I don't think I agree that they're untouchable supermen, but definitely more than fairly endowed.

Rather than nerf them though, I'd really like to see the weakest nations in the game boosted-and the more powerful nations diversified-until we get a more even playing field, without taking away from the appeal of playing Helheim/Vanheim.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with Vanheim/Helheim being very strong-they work as very strong nations, or we wouldn't be complaining. I just think the problem is with some other nations needing help.

There are definitely nations that make mince out of Vanheim/Helheim-Niefelheim does, for instance, and Tien Chi. That's because those nations are strong too, and because they have specific talents to combat Van/Hel. The problem isn't that Van/Hel is unbeatable unless you weigh the odds, though, it's because there aren't enough other nations that can stand toe-to-toe to them, where you might win, but you might not. Niefelheim beats them, Tien Chi beats them, other nations beat them, but what gives them a run for their money?

Van and Hel are tough to beat because they're put together well, and because they can exploit the weakness of others while protecting themselves against being exploited right back.
You don't have a chance against them playing some nations, unless your opponent is a 12 year old moron-and that's because they can pick weak nations apart-that's the problem, not that they're, by themselves, too strong.

So why wreak a couple of perfectly good, interesting nations just because they work too well? just fix the ones that are broken-and in the process, make me more good, interesting units and spells to play with.

[Sombre]

I don't think people want to start discussing this whole thing over again HB. If you read through the thread I think the point you make is addressed - when it comes to balance it's easier and it makes more sense to tone down the very overpowered stuff of 1 or 2 nations than go about improving the other 15 or so.

[Olive]

MaxWilson said:
100% positive that it's not the case with all buffs. I've used Strength of Giants, Legions of Steel, Iron Warriors, and Mistform on Glamour-ized troops without it knocking off the mirror images. I don't see why Body Ethereal would be any different, and in fact I'm pretty sure I've used Body Ethereal as well without that effect. Something else must have dispelled the images on your troops.

OK, maybe were they shot by arrows. Thanks for the answer.

[Szumo]

HoneyBadger, how does Tien Chi beat Vanheim?

[Saxon]

Velusion,

Oh yes, I am preaching to the choir, I am even part of it back on page 6 or so! The only reason I posted is to highlight that the nation is even stronger than I thought it was when I joined the choir...

HB,

You are right, it would be better to boost everyone else, but I think that limiting just one is probably a simpilier answer. Also, for the single player crowd, Vanheim (like Ermor in Dom II) does seem to really stand out as needing attention. In MP, it is different. It makes balance even trickier.

[Meglobob]

I would like to eat humble pie and say I have completely changed my mind on Helheim/Vanheim, they are overpowered. I am in 3 MP's at the mo and in 2 Helheims totally dominating the game. In another I am playing EA Oceania, fighting Helheim and its like banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall.

Furthermore, a very nasty strategy seems to have developed when playing Helheim. Essentially, Helheim gets globals up as follows, in one game forge of ancients then well of misery by turn 30'ish. In another well of misery/eternal pyre.

The thrust of this strategy seems 2 fold, research construction to get the unque artifacts/general bling, research conjuration to get all the water, air queens, tartarians and earth kings, fire kings etc....

So you end up with a MP in which Helheim has a huge gem income and a multitude of supercombatants, kitted out and is of course Helheim on top! Unless basically everyone else allies against Helheim, which players seem disinclined to do lately its game over.

The speed of Helheims research is very, very scarey...

[B0rsuk]

I strongly disagree. Boosting everyone else (or just some weaker nations) is a baad idea.

If you simply tone Vanheim down, you're changing balance of Vanheim vs C'tis, Vanheim vs Machaka, Vanheim vs Marignon, Vanheim vs Bandar Log.... In short, Vanheim vs EveryoneElse.

BUT if you decide to boost, say, Bandar Log and Ulm, you're changing over 2x more balance relations. Bandar Log vs (EveryoneElse-1), Bandar Log vs Ulm, Ulm vs (Everyone Else-1). Geometric scale ! Why balance several things at a time if you could safely balance just one ?

Meglobob: this is very interesting, because some people argued Vanheim/Helheim should rule early game because they supposedly don't have late game.

[Teraswaerto]

I don't see how anyone who understands anything about Dom3 could claim they don't have end game power. Just look at their magic paths: earth, air, death! Those are some weak paths, right? Sure they are.

Also, the raiding power of their stealthy troops never goes away.

[Velusion]

B0rsuk said:
I strongly disagree. Boosting everyone else (or just some weaker nations) is a baad idea.

I think the main thing people worry about is taking away the unique powers that the heims have. I'm all fine with leaving them as is... just increase the gold/resource cost.

B0rsuk said:
Meglobob: this is very interesting, because some people argued Vanheim/Helheim should rule early game because they supposedly don't have late game.

There is a certain white wizard here who likes to answer every issue with "but it all depends on how big your map is!". In the past I've let that go, because it sounds like a good point. However I'd like to debunk that thought now. The rate at which the heims can grow is astounding. The extra provinces they gain in the early game more than makes up for any losses in the scale department - plus more provinces = more gems. So in the mid/late game they have a very large empire with a superpower pretender and no real negatives.

But IMHO the biggest reason to tone them down is that it is NOT FUN to get creamed by them so early in the game. It doesn't matter how you design your nation, the vast majority of them cannot even hope to stand against an early attack by the heims and it is in their best interest to kill you quickly.

[Baalz]

1) Super strong early expansion
2) Very strong research- hammers + skulls + quills
3) Very strong combat magic
4) Strong death mages for powerful summonings.
5) Unmatched hit and run capabilities
6) Assuming a F/W bless they've got a strong mage in 5/8 of the magic paths
7) Even a taste of blood magic if you're feeling frisky

Yep, sounds like the recipe for a weak end game to me.

The only thing worse than early game Helhiem is late game Helhiem.