Unkillable aircraft!!! - Page 2

Deputy · #11 November 16th, 2007, 10:23 PM

I think you're right Andy. As in WW2, spread out and hiding in trees. Although I'm not sure if trees actually provide "air cover" for armor.

I just received the CD full version of WinSPMBT today and after loading it in and installing the latest patches, I must say that I find the realism of aircraft ops as well as fire against ground troops much more realistic than the WW2 version. But I sure hate those Ruskie Frogfoot ground attack planes. The stuff they drop REALLY hurts

Marek_Tucan · #12 November 17th, 2007, 04:55 AM

My only qualms with the aircrafts are the AI usually bunches all its air on one single target

Anyway, air does so far most damage to me when attacking antitank guns and their soft-fleshed prime movers.

Mobhack · #13 November 17th, 2007, 05:33 AM

I do have some code built in so that the AI will use any air en masse, once in a while.

That is because air in driblets is merely irritating - but delivery in a single fire-blow is the most efficient use of airstrikes. (I often use 1 sacrificial air pass to locate target concentrations, whack the revealed flack with arty for a move or 3, then use the remaining 5 or so planes in one punch on a juicy looking area, especially against a defender.).

The recce value of planes is probably a major benefit in the game, so if you have been overflown then probably a quick move of any stuff you are hiding is a good idea to break LOS, on the off chance you have been spotted. Some of the units will have been, and will draw enemy arty, or your ambuscade avoided etc if the opponent is a human player.

Once you have battered down his flak with your arty, and the planes have free reign, then after the fireblow, a scheduling of a strafing pass per turn or so is great mainly for the recce effect. That is the advantage of SP-AAA as even the AI will move its motor AAA assets, making them more difficult to deal with by arty suppresion, and catching the planes with fire from the re-hidden hidden units later (hopefully).

WW2 air did not really have much KO effect on armour, the natural target for fighter-bombers is trucks or open-topped halftracks, especially ammo and POL carriers in the corps/division etc rear zone. Kill lots of tigers by cutting the jugular vein of the supply convoys.

cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #14 November 18th, 2007, 07:51 AM

Hi Mobhack
Actually Ive always been puzzled by the airstrike planes recce effect. Aside from possibly spotter planes there is no real life mechanism for a strike aircraft to send information on the enemies exact disposition to the relevant ground forces. A typoon may radio back to the ground FO after leaving the flak zone that he saw some vehicles at the edge of a wood, and the FO may just happen to be in touch with the relevant nearby coy commander but it is unlikely. And of course the game turns what is a pilots vague report of a fleeting glimpse at 500 mph into the exact position and type of units. It it would be much more relistic if strike aircraft had no spotting ability.
Best Regards Chuck.

Mobhack · #15 November 18th, 2007, 08:25 AM

This game is based on a "spotted" flag for each item on map. Always has been since it came out. If one thing spots something, all in LOS spot it.

The alternative would need an array of [max units] bytes added to every units data and more complex code - but you as the "player God" would still be able to call arty on things in the rear that the spotter had no knowledge of. (That is the reason e.g. for the arty calling rules in the WRG tabletop rules, that limit impromptu arty fires to within 500m of a spotted enemy unit, or of a terrain feature your troops are advancing towards to pass within 500metres and are within 100m of etc)

The sorts of games where Bill knows about Hanz, but Eric and Fred don't (not until he communicates the knowledge to them "hes over there"! - "Not Seen" "3 o'clock from the small bush, 10 metres" - "Not seen!" - "watch my tracer" - "Seen!") only works in skirmish type games with very few units. And I have only seen such implemented in tabletop games, if at all. (There may be multiple-player shooter type computer section-level games where each player plays one man where this happens? - an ideal genre for such anyway).

All other computer games use a "spotted/unspotted" binary state, as do bored games and tabletop games usually have the tropps on table (bar ambushes marked on a map), though some tabletop games used paper chits, some of which would be dummys.

Cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #16 November 18th, 2007, 08:48 AM

Hi Mobhack
very interesting
Not sure you have to go to all that trouble though, the Level bombers dont seem to spot much do they? maybe the air strikes could be given the same spotting ability as the level bombers? ie close to 0. Seems to me spotting ability can vary with class? ie spotting ability is maybe a variable?
Best Regards Chuck.

Mobhack · #17 November 18th, 2007, 01:04 PM

Bombers do not spot much - since they are way up high.

Planes spot, since they are down in the weeds, and need the ability to actually find targets..

Andy

Deputy · #18 November 18th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Well I have no problems eating crow, and in this case I will do so gladly

. After more testing and game experience, I agree that the planes aren't carrying "death ray bombs and rockets". I apologize for making that idiotic statement. I think what happened was I had all the Preference setting set at maximum for the US, and when I played a scenario where the US was player two, I got clobbered.

I do have 2 questions concerning hiding from air power and spotting planes.
1. Spotting planes... If I have my units in trees, do spotting planes still "see" them all the time?

2.Is it even worth pulling off a road and hiding in trees to defend against air attacks? Or does any overhead plane "automatically" see every unit below them?

Mobhack · #19 November 18th, 2007, 09:58 PM

If you are hidden amongst blocking terrain, you may only get a strafing area attack.

Cheers
Andy

Marek_Tucan · #20 November 19th, 2007, 02:51 AM

As Mobhack said, go make few tests and you'll see that on good visibility in the open, the planes do target individual units (accompanied by text messages), but when the visibility is bad or the units are in cover (trees, city etc.) the planes are just attacking hex in hope the FO that called them in that sector did call them on correct target and that there really is something worth strafing down there.