Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.1

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I don't know if this is relevant, or just a result of using 3.10 with CB1.1 Gods/Scales.

Late Era Agartha has some funy pretenders. Including some Maverni hornblower or something.

[quantum_mechani]

That is actually a worthy heroes bug.

[Sombre]

TIRNANOG EA


Contact Cu Sidhe - 7 / 10 - RL3, N2 - A sacred animal summon. It's interesting to note there are two types of Cu Sidhe in the game, one green one (1770) and one black one (851). The green one is summoned by this spell and is actually quite a fighter, like an upgraded dire wolf with excellent mr. It lacks the patrol bonus of the black one however. This is one of the best animal summons I've seen, on par with the jade serpents. If it were 7 / 7 I'd use it for sure, probably with a nice bless.


(As an aside, the "Dire Wolf" unit, ID 1224, should really be size 3, not 2 as it currently is in the game.)



HELHEIM EA


Pack of Wolves - 20 / 25 - Same as EA Ulm's spell. I suggested changing it to 12 / 7, though perhaps even 13 or 14 / 7 would be needed to stop it sucking so bad. It's even more awful for Helheim because none of their national mages can cast it.



NIEFELHEIM EA


Pack of Wolves - 20 / 25 - Same spell again. Niefelheim can at least cast the damn thing, but only with about 1/2 of their Gygja.

[Sombre]

I've given Kailasa a look, but I don't feel overly confident in my ability to balance them, especially the commander summons. You can see from my approach so far that I basically boost summons - this is because I feel the majority of them are currently so much worse than the other uses for gems and they really are very cool. Anyway, Kailasa.


KAILASA EA


Summon Apsaras - 3 / 3 - S2, RL3 - They are offensively rubbish and have no prot, dying quickly to missile fire, however they are hard as hell to hit in melee. This spell isn't too bad considering they are sacred, but could sure use a boost, as part of the monkey nation early game. I suggest 6 / 4 for these as well as the tigers, because the spell requires astral gems and must therefore be tempting.


Ambush of Tigers - 7 / 10 - N2, RL3 - Same as the Tienchi spell I talked about before. I suggested a change to 6 / 4 earlier. I stand by it.


Contact Yaksha - 1 / 25 - N2E1, RL4 - These are buildable by Kailasa and unlikely to be cast by Patala. For Bandar Log they are nice summons for the Rishis, though given that they cost astral and are rather restricted they could perhaps be even cheaper. 1 / 22 wouldn't break anything.


Contact Yakshini - 1 / 25 - N2W1, RL4 - These are buildable by Kailasa and unlikely to be cast by Patala. For Bandar Log they are nice summons for the Rishis, though given that they cost astral and are rather restricted they could perhaps be even cheaper. 1 / 22 wouldn't break anything.


Summon Gandharvas - 6 / 18 - S2, RL5 - This is more like it; Sacred, skilled, fast, resistant, protected and they even have standard 5. These guys are capable of kicking serious ***, though imo they are overcosted in base (like most troop summons) particularly as they cost astral. 6 / 12 or 14 would be far more tempting.


Summon Kinnara - 1 / 25 - S3, RL6 - Access to a flying commander with A2 is cool, even better with his other abilities. No change suggested.


Summon Siddha - 1 / 35 - S4, RL7 - Main feature of these chappies is flying mapmove 10. They might be thuggable with the right equips. They are better than Kinnaras in almost every respect so 35 seems ok. No change.


Summon Devata - 1 / 45 - S5, RL8 - Thuggable, A3S2H3, they can't fly. I suggest a decrease to 1 / 40.


Summon Devala - 1 / 55 - S5, RL9 - Increases magic scale and fairly quickly too, S3H4 which is interesting, no flying,... a discount to 1 / 45 might be fair because they don't do much else and at this research level I'm not sure how important a magic scale increase would be.


Summon Rudra - 1 / 55 - S5, RL9 - Rudras appear to suffer from old age, which they probably shouldn't. They grant access to F3 and D3 are storm fliers with mapmove 4, but they can't lead or research (who cares?). Their description says they can't forge but they could when I tested. Very cool units, but a bit overcosted again. 1 / 45-50.

[Sombre]

YOMI EA



Summon Kappa - 1 / 1 - W1N1, RL1 - Oh dear. These fellas are ok when you can recruit them, but as a summon they suck *** and are sort of like upgraded sea dogs. 6 / 3 and I'd cast them to eat arrows and expand UW.


Summon Karasu Tengu - 1 / 1 - N1A1, RL2 - Sacred. Similar to Konoha Tengu but more skilled in melee. Still fragile. As a Tengu of the wilds it should get forest survival and being able to fly in storms it should get 50% shockres. Yomi can't cast these with nationals. I suggest 5 / 3 to reward those who can actually cast and use them. Which is only Jomon pretty much.


Summon Konoha Tengus - 5 / 5 - A1E1, RL3 - Sacred. Similar to Karasu Tengu but less skilled in melee. Still fragile. As a Tengu of the mountains it should get mountain survival and being able to fly in storms it should get 50% shockres. I suggest 10 / 6 to reward those who can actually cast and use them. Yomi actually can, as can Jomon.


Ambush of Tigers - 7 / 10 - N2, RL3 - Same as the Tienchi/Kailasa spell I talked about before. I suggested a change to 6 / 4 earlier. I stand by it. Yomi can't cast this.


Ghost General - 1 / 10 - D3, RL4 - These are basically the national version of Banes, harder to cast, one research level higher and hardly much better. I suggest lowering the requirement to D2 and dropping the price to 1 / 5, the same requirement and price as Revive Bane in CBM 1.1. That way you don't have to waste Dai Oni time to cast them and they thematically replace Banes, slightly better but at one research level higher.


Contact Dai Tengu - 1+25 / 55 - A2E1, RL5 - You get one Dai Tengu commander and a 25 Konoha tengu retinue. He has A3E1N1H2 and as such can summon more Tengu. I suggest a drop in cost to 45. Yomi has virtually no chance to cast this with nationals, Shinuyama can't but Jomon can.


Contact Nushi - 1 / 25 - W2N1, RL5 - She gets sick and dies if she leaves her home. Nushi are W3D1N2 and so can step up your paths slightly, but are pretty underwhelming generally. 1 / 20 would be better. Yomi can't cast her, but Shinu and Jomon can.

[Sombre]

ATLANTIS EA


Summon Monster Fish - 1 / 10 - W3, RL6 - It's ok, but it's very niche. Considering only Atlantis has it and they are very often outclassed in the water, it could certainly be cheaper. I suggested knocking the Asp Turtle down to 1 / 12, but perhaps it should be 1 / 10 and this should be 1 / 6 or 7.



OCEANIA EA and RLYEH EA don't have jack.




LANKA EA



Host of Ganas - 20 / 12 - D1, RL2 - I've actually used this effectively in SP, but even then it was only really good compared to stuff like summon shades. With CBM dropping summon shades to 4 / 1, these very shadelike fellas should be something like 20 / 7.


Summon Vetalas - 10 / 10 - D2, RL5 - These guys are great fun at parties. They are ethereal but fragile, rather like ganas, but they do have a damaging life drain attack. Their secondary attack is touch of madness which is only good against commanders and is mr negates as well as only resolving at att 9. In my opinion they are both overcosted and too high in research. I'd drop them to 10 / 5 or 6 and RL4.


Summon Rakshasas - 3 / 10 - B1, RL1 - Not bad, especially with the typically strong lankan bless. As with the next two summons, I don't see any particular need for change. 3 / 9 maybe.


Feast of Flesh - 15 / 50 - B1N1, RL2 - Again, Praghasas aren't too bad at all. They're very similar to Rakshasa really, though more annoyingly gluttonous. That's the tradeoff for being able to summon so many at a time I suppose.


Summon Asrapas - 5 / 11 - B2, RL3 - Work with rather a different bless from the previous two summons, but are less powerful in combat. With a water/fire bless they could be mean as hell, so the price seems roughly right.


Summon Rakshasa Warriors - 5 / 25 - B2, RL4 - Considerably tougher to take down than their lower level brothers. They also work better with nature bless, though switching two attacks for one means they're worse with fire. Yet again, the price seems about right to me. No wonder Lankan blood summons have a good rep.


Summon Sandhyabalas - 3 / 30 - B2D1, RL5 - Ah. I'm not convinced these guys are worth the price. They're like stealthy dark powered moonblade swinging Rakshasa Warriors, but are 100% susceptible to fire rather than 50%. I think 4 / 30 would be fairer, but I am happy to be corrected.


Summon Dakini - 1 / 50 - B2A1, RL6 - As strong flying mages they seem ok for the price. I defer to others' expertise on this one. They have blood vengeance but it seems like it would be hard to utilise.


Summon Samanishada - 1 / 35 - B3D1, RL7 - Assassins, especially expensive ones, don't fare too well in dom3. What is a nice idea is using assassins with standard move orders to hunt thugs with the right equipment. Since they come with a moonblade and dusk dagger plus tasty stats (though not SC worthy), these guys might fill that role. I suggest lowering the cost to 1 / 30 because their main trick of assassination doesn't usually cut it.


Summon Mandaha - 1 / 133 - B5D2, RL8 - Going to have to defer to others on this one. The price seems ok and apparently people are getting plenty of use out of them, so no problem. One thing that does strike me as odd about them is that they have a gcost of 600, so they cost a load of upkeep. This is not in keeping with similar summons.


Summon Davanas - 3 / 75 - B5, RL8 - Eh,.. considering the research level I am not impressed. I believe if you GoR them you get H2 + 2 50% chances of B1 and 2 50% chances of A1. I think in CB this should be a single commander summon for 66 or something. They also don't appear to have an attack sprite. No idea why that is, guess it's a bug.

[vfb]

I have a slight disagreement about your assessment of Summon Vetalas:

This spell gives you 10 Unit #1765 (Possessed Corpse). Not ethereal yet, but not what I would consider fragile. This form has 22HP, 14 Prot, 14 MR, 16 Str, 12 Attack.

When killed they don't die, they are like Onis and they turn into their Vetala form (U#1766). Now they are ethereal, with a brand-spanking new 15 HP and a life drain attack to keep them going.

And the ethereal form heals completely into a new Possessed Corpse before the next battle, pretty much wiping out the "never heals" penalty.

In my opinion, these undead monkeys are serious bad news and I don't think it needs a boost.

(Yeah, I was ravaged by swarms of screaming Vetala hordes in MP, can you tell? )

[Sombre]

Ah, see I was just looking at the vetala form - I added it as a recruitable unit and tested it out, I didn't get them from the spell and thus get the possessed corpse form first.

My bad. Let me give them another look.

[Sombre]

Ok having looked at them again,...


Summon Vetalas - 10 / 10 - D2, RL5 - These guys are great fun at parties. Their first form is a fairly tough undead Bandar Warrior with some solid offensive power. If this is killed they switch to a second form which is ethereal but fragile, rather like ganas; though it has a damaging life drain attack. The second form also has a touch of madness attack which can feeblemind, but is mr negates as well as only resolving at att 9. The second form will restore itself back to first form after battle. Because of this they are pretty durable and much stronger than I initially assessed. The base price therefore seems ok, though if they aren't seeing much use they could still be discounted to 10 / 8 or so.

[Sombre]

Here comes some more,.... finishing up EA and moving on to MA. As always, I welcome discussion. These are just my ideas after all.


FOMORIA EA


Summon Black Dogs - 20 / 10 - D2, RL2 - These little dogs are actually rather good. They have dark power, 100 DV and stealth 20. Much better combat stats than animals like wolves too. Good spell and fun unit. Really shows how bad summon animals is for the basegame 20 / 20.


Summon Barghests - 9 / 13 - D2, RL4 - Barghests are basically upgraded black dogs who are also sacred. The spell is fairly good and if you have a nice bless, the dogs can make a mess. With DP3 and DV100 they're also badass in the dark. I suggested changing Cu Sidhe from 7/10 to 7/7 (that might be a bit cheap) so a cost reduction would make sense,.. to differentiate them from the Black Dogs summon, reducing the numbers further might make sense. I suggest 5 / 6.


Summon Morrigan - 1 / 4 - D2A1, RL6 - Like the Umbral (for EA and MA Agartha anyway) the Morrigan is rather hard to mass because the recruitables capable of casting it are all cap only. I therefore suggest a change to 3 / 10 or 12. Badass troops though.




------------------MIDDLE ERA--------------




ARCOSCEPHALE MA - Same as EA.


ERMOR MA - As with Ermor EA, no national summons here.


PYTHIUM MA


Contact Harbinger - 1 / 25 - S4, RL6 - Nice. Cost seems fine, as long as people are actually using them. No change.


Angelic Host - 1+6 / 50 - S5, RL7 - This is a farsummon. You get 1 Archangel commander with 6 Angel troops. Again this is powerful and seems costed about right.


Heavenly Wrath - 1 / 35 - S3F1, RL7 - Summons up an Angel of Fury. No magical abilities, no leadership, he's built purely for SC duties. Blood Vengeance 2 is the really interesting thing about him. Do people use him? The lack of magic paths seems like a turnoff.


Heavenly Choir - 1 / 144 - S7F2, RL9 - Generally considered the most powerful SC monster in the game, the Seraph might actually justify this kind of price tag. You also get a load of Angels of the Heavenly Choir, which aren't too shabby themselves, unless I'm mistaken. I'm out of my depth here so I'll just say 'No Comment'.



MAN MA


Summon Black Dogs - 20 / 10 - D2, RL2 - Same spell as the Fomorian version. Man lacks the recruitable mages to cast these.


Summon Cu Sidhe - 7 / 10 - N2, RL3 - Identical to Tirnanogs 'Contact Cu Sidhe'. I suggested 7 / 7 or thereabouts. They are different spells, but are functionally identical afaik.


Summon Barghests - 9 / 13 - D2, RL4 - Same spell as the Fomorian version. Like Black Dogs, it's not castable by recruits.



ULM MA - The same as ULM EA, except you actually lose the Pack of Wolves spell.

MARIGNON MA - Same as Pythium MA. Identical Angel summons.

MICTLAN MA - Same as Mictlan EA.

TIENCHI MA - Same as Tienchi EA.

MACHAKA MA - Have no national spells.


AGARTHA MA


Awaken Cavern Wight - 1 / 3 - D1E1, RL3 - In competition with the Summon Umbral spell which is only 2 research levels higher. CBM 1.1 made them 1 / 1. The problem is that MA Agartha can only cast them with cap only expensive oracles. LA Agartha can mass the buggers, but also has Sepulchrals to go for, plus a mass summoning of them up the research tree with 'Halls of the Dead'. So in my opinion this spell should be usable for MA Agartha and for LA should offer something a bit different from Umbrals and Sepulchrals. I suggest 8 / 10.


Summon Umbral - 1 / 2 - D1E1, RL5 - Same as the EA Agartha spell. Like EA, MA Agartha has problems massing these.


Attentive Statues - 2 / 8 - E2, RL3 - These are roughly the same as the 'Living Statue' units gained by casting 'Enliven Statues'. The requirements are quite a bit lower but they cost over twice as much. Bearing this spell is for MA Agartha, it should be better. CBM 1.1 had them at 2 / 5 but I think to differentiate them from both Enliven Statues and the higher level agarthan statue spells, they should be 5 / 10. This gives Agartha an early game boost without treading on the toes of the other spells and would surely make the spell usable, even good.


Enliven Sentinel - 1 / 4 - E2, RL4 - Being sacred and with boosted stats, these kick the crud out of living and attentive statues. I think they should be 2 / 7 or 8. Massable because they're E2 and you get 2 per cast, but far less so than the attentive or living statues, while obviously quality over quantity.


Enliven Granite Guard - 1 / 12 - E3, RL5 - CBM 1.1 had these at 1 / 8. Only making 1 at a time makes perfect sense and differentiates the spell from other statue summons. I reckon you could go 1 / 7 without unbalancing them though. The pinnacle of quality over quantity.


Enliven Marble Oracle - 1 / 45 - E3D1, RL6 - I'm really not sure why these are worth 45 gems. I feel like I'm missing something. They are like upgraded Golems, but with holy 2 instead of astral. Clearly they are to be used as SCs and they do have nice slots and stats for that duty,... but 45 gems? 35 would seem closer to the mark to me, especially when you consider that Golems are basically something you get for free just by researching construction (which you'd have to do to get items for your Marble Oracle SC anyway).