long Campaign

[evan]

I am running a long campaign using the Germans over the course of the whole war over 60 battles.

Ok I don't really expect to play it out any time soon but am having second thoughts about the setings with regard to points and map size.

Thus I would like some suggestions of what you all have found to work well regards core forc size and map sizes?

Again thanks for a great game.

Secondry point; I can deal with the massed waves of Soviet Infantry but are there any suggeestions on dealing with the masses of Soviet Armour; 130 AFV's vs 35 of mine; even when half the unspeakables are T26's they still use up ammo.

[RubberNeck]

"Secondry point; I can deal with the massed waves of Soviet Infantry but are there any suggeestions on dealing with the masses of Soviet Armour; 130 AFV's vs 35 of mine; even when half the unspeakables are T26's they still use up ammo."

Arty. HE can rout a few, especially if their exp is low. My pet peeve with the massed attacks is that one of my shots will draw numerous op fire return shots which can drop my rate of fire even if it doesn't KO my tank. My solution (especially in wide open Russian maps) is to lay a smoke curtain and deal with the approaching tanks one or two at a time as they emerge from the smoke. It doesn't reduce the total number of tanks but definitely reduces the amount of supporting fire that they can muster and makes it easier to deal with them. If possible, place your smoke screen at a range which will give your ammo the best chance of a one hit kill. No point bouncing multiple shells off a target when ammo is already in short supply.

[Charles22]

I like to play them with the map 200 hexes high, by like 140 wide. I also like the German starting campaign points to be between 3300-3500pts.

Now I know that sounds radical, but it's a much more fun game that way. This is especially the case when you are defending. What happens is that when you are attacked, you can't possibly cover the whole front very well, so you end up with some areas sparsely defended. You may be able to guard all the VH's pretty well, but not the whole map. If the VH's were scattershot then this is much more difficult. It is a more difficult way to play, on the defensive anyway, but it's that much more rewarding for that reason.

What typically happens is I might have half my force in the middle of the map and the other two quarters responsible for the flanks. Inevitably in almost all defensive battles, you're not strong enough to hold the line, even where you are the strongest often enough. In order to hold, you have to experience what amounts to fire brigade defense. You size up where the greatest threat is and then send some forces from a relatively non-threatened area to shore up. What this often means is that if one of the flanks are being hammered, then the middle sends a good many there, while the other flank probably reinforces the middle. This naturally means that if an attack comes later to the middle or other flank, there is going to be quite a few troops not dug in, but it's a chance you have to take to fight en force and limit casualties.

Another thing this style of gameplay does is it makes your gun range something of great importance. Suppose for an instant that you are playing anywhere between a 60-110 hex map in height. Playing in very good weather, and with no obstacles, you could position even many of the early war tanks and ATG's in the middle and scarcely have to move them. That's just not fun. Even in the attack you run into this problem. I will put 3-4 tank platoons together to have (I maybe have a total of 30-40 core tanks per battle) A reliable strong attack in a sector, but the map is so high that I have to have penny packets in others, and that can get interesting even trying to confront infantry. I do have infantry along with the majority of the tanks, just for spotting if nothing else, but there's nothing like the sensation of one of your precious core platoons that cannot get any armored help for at least 2-4 turns because everything is quite spread out. In these games, there's often no such thing as the middle tanks, in offense or defense, being able to help out the flanks without moving considerably from the middle positions. It really does make the game much more fluid and less dogging.

One important point I haven't brought out, is that it's important also to not use the maximum map width. the reason for that is that it makes the fire brigading much more critical, and it seems to take the AI too long to get to your front with a wider setting. I just can't recall whether I settled for 130 or 140 hexes, but it's in that area where it's pretty sweet. Having a less deep rear also makes the enemy job of finding your on-field artillery less daunting.

[Mobhack]

Secondry point; I can deal with the massed waves of Soviet Infantry but are there any suggeestions on dealing with the masses of Soviet Armour; 130 AFV's vs 35 of mine; even when half the unspeakables are T26's they still use up ammo.

I'll assume you have majored in the Panzer 3 models with 5 cm plus frontal armour and the 5cm short tank gun for Russia?. The panzer 4 is only useful for infantry bashing at this time, the 37mm armed tanks are only useful for killing T26 and BT series, and as infantry support with their Mgs and popgun HE, and will find a T28 hard work to deal with. Still useful in a secondary role though, as there is plenty of infantry to bash and thin tin to puncture when dealing with a Barbarossa era Soviet army!.

The Soviet tank park in Barbarossa (bar rare T34 and KV), is simply target practice for German tanks. The 47mm is a shade worse than the 2 pounder you were dealing with in the desert. Having just fought a Soviet LC where I started with T50s, the 47mm is best used against the tougher P3s at 3-4 hexes only if engaging frontally, and at 10 hexes or less on the flanks, and these tankettes really only could survive with ambush tactics in any case!. Also, if the Nazis were running away, the P3s have a tough bum, so up the kilt shots were generally not good either!.

The 5cm Panzer 3s have 60 plain AP rounds, and 15 sabot rounds stowed on each of them. You should not be running out of AP any time soon with those deep pockets, unless you have split your tank force into penny packets and shotgunned these all over the battlefield with no mutual support. I never bother with any ammo trucks etc supporting the front line troops when playing German - just bunkers by the mortars or SIGs shuttling to and from dumps in the artillery park. The sabot rounds will deal with T34, T28 and valentines, at 3-5 hexes or so (these heavier armoured tanks are the only ones that need thought to engage - ambushing them from the flanks is best, e.g. in a wood, with mutual infantry support).

Operate your tank companies as companies - all together in one main action area, not over 20 hexes from the company's HQ. If you only have one company - use it to engage one lump of the enemy at a time, when that's dealt with, you trundle off to the next action area that needs dealing with as a single company lump. Rinse and repeat until job done.

Only use a few independent tank sections or platoons, if you have them, as flank security teams, and engage any enemy with these from flanking ambush positions at range, and in no case allow them to get overwhelmed - "run away, brave Sir Robin", if the enemy locally outnumbers you. A section or 2 of towed (or Jpz1) 47mm(t) or long 5cm L60 ATG are useful to work your flanks as flank security as well, set up behind motor rifle units who are acting in support of the flank security elements. Should your flank support tank sections need to retire in a "Brave Sir Robin", then try to run them through or by such a set-up flank ambush position of infantry+ATG and then support the ambuscade. Any stugs or panzer 4 or 37mm popgun tanks, should simply advance slowly behind your leg grunts as local infantry support. Their job is to Mg or HE any enemy grunts in support of your infantry advance, and to deal with any stray BT or similar tin cans that may get loose near your grunts. Especially since German infantry AT weapons are not that good, at least until later - they need the CS tanks in that time frame, I have found.

Assume the AI is coming at you. Identify a clear killing ground where he will be advancing at you (probably at an objective cluster) over a clear field of a kilometre or so - your firing position would probably be in a wood, or on a hill line overwatching that area. Plan to deploy 2 of your platoons, with the coy HQ as well perhaps on the firing line, but hold back a platoon (and possibly the Coy HQ) in reserve 500m or so back and deploy later as the situation develops. As you get to the firing line, start firing mortars etc at 1000 metres or so in front of the line, to catch his advancing targets in the blast, and strip off any tank riders etc. Dismount any halftrack carried HMG teams and use these to zap riders off the targets and then when stripped off you can give the riders headaches as well, while directing the artillery belt onto these and any follow up leg grunts. Objective is to have the enemy tanks advancing naked of infantry support, and hopefully most of them to be buttoned up as well (cannot see you so well, cannot hit so well, and have fewer shot opportunities). The dust kicked up from the arty will also tend to screen you from any enemy behind the lead - like slow-moving KVs, whose 76mm gun can be dangerous at a distance to your P3s, or any 76mm ATG the Russians have deployed close to the front line (even the AI will do that sometimes!).

Remain stationary, and keep firing. Job done, only problems would be if the targets are T34 and KV series - if spotted, drop a shed-load of artillery onto them while you figure out how to deal with them - e.g. by a flank attack, or by setting up some 88s you kept in reserve for such a contingency. or - my solution - destroy enough of the enemy that a general rout occurs (locally by slaughtering zillions of tin cans nearby, or a general army rout from killing enough infantry and other tin cans from the force to cause a force broken status), and those few nasties you were keeping occupied in a cloud of HE and smoke, will exit stage left, anyway. But do not duel with T34 or KV until you get access to the L43 75mm later in the war.

Keep the firing line halted and executing advancing targets, since moving is bad for hit chance, and uses shot opportunities. Stay in place as long as you can, and only move off if the situation needs it - like you have become an artillery magnet. Have an alternate killing position already in mind for this situation.

Use the reserve platoon and coy HQ to manoeuvre against any flankers, to exploit around the flanks of a stalled enemy advance perhaps, or simply to beef up the main firing line later, should that be required. Later in the game, assuming they have not engaged much, then that platoon can rotate and replace a lead platoon, as they will likely still have a full complement of sabot rounds - which may be depleted in the other 2 by now. Could be handy - e.g. if a few slower lend-lease valentines bumble out of the smoke and fire of the killing ground.

I do not use tank riders as a German player - except maybe on the reserve platoon in a tank company, if in closer terrain. I prefer to have a panzer grenadier company operating in close support of the lead tank company if points allow, a platoon if not. In mobile operations, I do not tend to dismount them (APC with mounted infantry spot better than tanks) except if any tripod MGs fires would be useful, but rely more on the APC mgs. If in danger from any enemy tanks nearby, then the pigs will "hide with pride" until the tankies have dealt with them. Dismounting is reserved for 1-hex close-range ambushes in woods or behind a ridge line etc (with tanks parked in the same hex as each section), or when assaulting or securing an objective.

The panzer grenadiers will operate with the tank company's reserve element - i.e. in the advance they are behind the front line platoons, and if defending in the rear generally, or working the flank of the ambush.

If I have any 88mm sections, then I keep these loaded on the carriers, and in deep reserve. But not parked near to any firing arty that may atract fire!. In Barbarossa, these units are really only there to deal with the T34 and especially any KV that are encountered, maybe any valentines if these are getting annoying. Not worth plinking at T26 or BT with these. These need skill to use - you must set up as far as possible out of any direct-fire HE response as possible, and unlike your earlier desert experience, the USSR has issued 47mm HE, and some of the grunt companies may have support from 12.7mm dushkas. Best therefore if you can set up in cover from LOS, to get the advancing T34s or KVS as they come over a ridge etc. Plan to deploy in one turn and to be there firing for probably 2 turns maximum - mount up to redeploy by the second turn as 88s are arty magnets, so scoot before they shoot!.

If the lead tank coy needs scouting when advancing - then a few motorcycles and little armoured cars bought from support points will do the job fine. Their job is mainly to "hide with pride" in good overwatch positions.

[evan]

Thanks Mobhack for the tactics lesson.

Can a unit be provented from opertunity fire at certain targets.
i.e. an 88 opens up on a Tin can of some sort; gets hammered by return fire and then the T34 comes over the hill last of all and the 88's are at 99 surpression and can neither be moved or fired at the target I need it for.

Related to this is how the AI decides on Arty targets as some things (88's for example) attract every piece of Arty the AI can lay it's hands on while another unit thats actually doing more harm is ignored?

And thanks Charles22 as well; much bigger map than I;ve being using. I'll now refer to the manual to see if it tell's me how large a map can be made. BTW did you have to alter settings for game length?

[Mobhack]

Filtering of Opfire, see the "CD extra features" item in your game Guide, assuming you only have the DL.

As far as heavy AT guns attracting arty goes - the AI interest is by unit class, and that class is weighted higher, along with e.g. engineeers, FOOs.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

evan said:
Thanks Mobhack for the tactics lesson.

Can a unit be provented from opertunity fire at certain targets.
i.e. an 88 opens up on a Tin can of some sort; gets hammered by return fire and then the T34 comes over the hill last of all and the 88's are at 99 surpression and can neither be moved or fired at the target I need it for.

Related to this is how the AI decides on Arty targets as some things (88's for example) attract every piece of Arty the AI can lay it's hands on while another unit thats actually doing more harm is ignored?

And thanks Charles22 as well; much bigger map than I;ve being using. I'll now refer to the manual to see if it tell's me how large a map can be made. BTW did you have to alter settings for game length?

I have the cd version, but I think all versions let you change the map dimensions on the setup screen.

I haven't personally found a need to alter the length any, but sometimes I at least consider altering the visibility. Again, I can't be sure the non-cd version allows all that altering, but whatever lengths the game has given me for those larger battles, it still seems to work quite well for me and the AI. The reason that may be so is that while my map is much taller than the default, the width is somewhat narrower. That may also be another reason why I decreased the width to what I specified (though come to think of it, that may be wider still than the default) because there might not had been enough turns to really flesh out the battles and capture everything. I think what actually happened was I went with maximum height and width, and ended up finding that only the maximum height was desireable. It would be pretty radical to make the width more narrow still, with that much height, but I thin 130-140 wide is pretty comfortable for how long it takes most of the mobility to reach the front. Another thing to think about, as far as the AI is concerned with width, is the more width you have, the more time it gives for the AI to separate it's foot units from it's mobile ones while with an attack mission. The AI does tend to load a good portion of infantry so it's not a total disaster with a much wider scope, but it does make it easier than it should be to defends against. It also gives me less time to react.

If I advance a recon unit up 20 hexes from a defensive front, and thereby spot a column, with a narrower map I have less hexes that I would dare to do such reconning, thereby giving me less reaction time.

One other thing about a very tall map like that one, and that is that is gives you some sense of having an area so tall that you "have to" have some separation of forces in order to hope to hold the map on the defensive. This in turn gives you the rather unique feeling that you're commanding more companies than you really are, simply because to render aid to the other is going to take time. I can't help but feel that when on the defensive, I am playing mobile defense as so often the Germans had to do in the USSR in the later years. It is a rather interesting way to play, as opposed to the big blob force that can almost hit any unit from any spot of the map. Ranges and speed matter a great deal when there is so much real estate. I played SPWAW for so long where I could never get a map over 80 hexes high, and often was forced to play only 20-40 hexes high. Now how ridiculous is that? I have typically anywhere from 100-130 units, and I have only 20 hexes in height? 80 hexes wasn't too bad for that size of a force, but I never had a problem where a middle force couldn't wipe out the map with open desert ranges for example, and 200 hexes will give you that flexibility in spades (no tank gun range over 80 I think). You play with a defensive blob on that map, and you will have the AI eating your lunch on some flank quite easily. I do try to play a game where I try to keep the AI from taking any objectives, as I'm reasoning that it saves civilian lives, but ultimately if I do have to back off, it's something of a consolation if I retake them later and therefore liberate them. Attacking with such a tall map isn't quite as interesting, but defense is a world of fun.

[Shan]

Some very good points there - Mobhack, of course, knows the game better than anyone I guess. Works well - but only if you are disciplioned enough and stick to your set of rules, or SOPs. Too often, however, the temptation is just too great to get some more cheap kills - which usually ends up in a disaster for me. I only say: Molotov &Co.

That said, I also prefer to play on larger maps with a rather small force, like Charles22 mentioned - esp. for meeters, but also for delay + defence, later in the war. My ideal force is almost fully-armored, with mobile arty and AA, as well as ammo carriers. The Ruskis often maneuver around in my rear, but this does not bother me when I got my battle group concentrated and doing one job after another. Job done - mount up and deal with another enemy force. AI seems to be confused a lot by such tactics.

This also works for delay+defence - the Germans had trouble to maintain a continuously manned front line and resorted to defending strongholds only, which should overwatch any gaps. During the long retreats, those temporary strongpoints often wouldnt survive any attack and weren't meant to - the real fighting was done by the reserves. Mobile reserves are kept in the rear to deal with any break-throughs and launch counter-attacks. I am planning to create a little campaign which is based on this way of fighting.
A few scouts, trying to sneak past the attackers and check out the enemy rear, are also useful, even thought this is very risky. If they manage to get past or take out the ubiquituous enemy AA + AT units guarding the rear, they are often able to take out the arty as well - and force the AI to turn around some of his attackers, trying to intercept the intruders which by then will have set up a nice little ambush. Fronts reversed, attack weakened, enemy confused, and if you stumble over the enemy HQ unit an early rout may be the result!

[evan]

Thanks Charles22; yep the Dl version does have those edit features and I'll get around to trying your suggestions when my current campaign runs out of victories. (another skirmish with the Russians should do it.)

And I was afraid I was going to need the CD version.

As always thanks for the answers.

[philjat]

Hi all

i'm falling in WSPWW2 from some time now, and i'm trying long campaign. I'm starting with a german core 2 Inf coy and 2 Panzers platoon, now after 6 battles some unit are veterans and i would know if the computer unit stay at normal experience or if there are some veteran enemy unit to coming ?

Hope my english clear, sorry for if not good.

second one, i've found the filter for unit in the range directory, but i've not understand it very well, so where i can found explanation in the manual ?

Thanks for the game and answers.

Philippe (from fRANCE)