US Sniper rifle???

[Charles22]

Yes, that was part of what I was trying to say, that you could have something approaching the non-generic and take up less space. OTOH, there is something to be said for the generic to a degree, because it does allow you that fire control flexibility. If you went with the non-generic, which fire control do you choose? That's a big question. And it's proably close to impossible to come up with the right scheme. Even if it isn't, if you really wanted the same FC flexibility with each case, then you really start running into a numbers problem. In any case, I think the FC ratings being different for the different sniper classes (and in other different factors) are a freestyle way of you choosing what sort of rifle and scope they have. It would truly be weird if you selected tanks in the same manner.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Charles
Well its fine that RF and FC values are a freestyle way of choosing rifles as long as those choices have some basis in reality.

Ian Hogg (from his book infantry weapons) has this to say. For the Mauser, a forward locking bolt gives it "greater accuracy" and it comes with a "4 power telescope which lived up to the high reputation of the german optics industry"
In Germany many other telescopes apparently appeared up until 44 when standard issue became a 1.5 power.
Lee Enfied, "never really a great success for really pin point shooting" because of a rear locking bolt.
No 4(T) had a no 32 telscope and was the first rifle in the Lee Enfield series that made a "good" sniper rifle. No 4s, like the german and russian rifles were hand selected for accuracy. They had I think a 3.5 magnification.
German Gewehr 43 semeiautomatic had a scope 4 times according to wikipedia.
Garrand had 2.2 magnification scope
There is a sniping springfield which persisted to the end of the war. May have had a 2.2* site.
Russia had the Moissin Nagent with a 4 or 3.5 telescope Hogg says "It was an accurate weapon for this role" He is not so complimentary on the Tokavrev "How often it was used as such (for sniping) one cannot tell".
The Japanese ariska rifle is a 6.5mm mauser copy and so accurate, type 97 is the sniping version "The japanese were also adept at using snipers or more properly sharpshooters, and the ariska was ideal for work of this kind"
Arisaka had a 2.5 scope

Which FC do you choose? well already I see that Jap, Brit, USA and Russ FC and RF selection is 10, 6, 3, and 0. Russ also has a 2 and Japan doesnt have a 0 wheras the Germans get 10 8 5 3 and 0 so sniping isn't as generic as may first appear.
As I see it the values are this. The -weapons- accuracy, basicly flatness of trajectory is roughly the same for each sniper rifle you might if you were to assume that the current 30 is correct for the (as it may be) "best" sniper rifles, Mauser and Arisaka and possibly Sprigfield and Moisant Nagent. You might give 25 to lee enfield and Garrand. The -units- FC value is about the sights quality and magnification the maximum of 10 can go to the 4* lenses giving the Mauser and Moisant Nagent FC of 10 the lee enfield with 3.5 then would get 9. Ariska at 2.5 would get 6 and Garand and Springfield at 2.2 would get 6 or 5. German 1.5 would get 4 (ie divide 10 by the Mausers 4* give the factor of 2.5 to multiply each magnification by. I dont know what the current FC values relate to.) The -units- RF is really for range finders but I understand that for snipers it is a way of giving them better target hit ability. It would be probably best to leave it unchanged, in that it should be the same as the FC value.
Not quite sure how to deal with the -weapons- range, a combination of accuracy and magnification. The max 15 probably Ok for all of them but real life testimonials would probably be in order. You would think the larger magnification scopes could hit out further.

Gamey players love snipers, they can call in artillery (an ability Id love to see removed), are hard to find, move quickly, can really deal out some death and are exteremely difficult to kill. I dont like them and I think they are a bit 'uber' in the game. Give them movement of 1 I say, marksmen can have the regulation 6.
And dont forget we can add the extra sniper rifles to all the other OOBs except Germanies, and so dont need different FCs and RAs for each -weapon-. For the Germans the current weapon 146 becomes the Mauser 4*. You could give the weapon as it appears in different -units- FC and RF of 0 to get a german marksman I guess. and a FC and RF of 4 for the mauser 1.5* though giving them all the same range is probably a bit of a stretch.

Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Russia had the Moissin Nagent with a 4 or 3.5 telescope Hogg says "It was an accurate weapon for this role" He is not so complimentary on the Tokavrev "How often it was used as such (for sniping) one cannot tell".

Quite often, at least judging from our troops in USSR. Sniper Mosins were always in short supply.

[PatG]

chuckfourth said:
...The Japanese ariska rifle is a 6.5mm mauser copy and so accurate, type 97 is the sniping version "The japanese were also adept at using snipers or more properly sharpshooters, and the ariska was ideal for work of this kind"
Arisaka had a 2.5 scope...

I think you will find that the 6.5mm Arisakas were of markedly inferior muzzle velocity and muzzle energy to both the Mauser and Lee Enfield. The sniper versions even more so as they are said to have used reduced power ammunition see: Wikipedia 6.5x50mm_Arisaka.

The Arisaka's trajectory was anything but flat at longer ranges. What it did have was a relatively quiet report and low muzzle flash which made it more difficult to locate. Most Japanese "sniper" reports in even period accounts are probably nothing more than some poor Gunjin strapped into a palm tree with a stock rifle.

While I am also uncomfortable with the sniper's ability to call in artillery etc., A perusal of the most basic material on sniper doctrine will show that a sniper's primary role was intelligence gathering and secondarily long range killing. This has been discussed on the list in detail before. That all units on the map immediately receive all intelligence is a known game "feature".

[Charles22]

Yes, I told you there was gold there if you looked for it, and it sounds like you have worked it out in your mind. The only problem that remains, other than just blatant accuracy across the board is that most users won't have a clue but that's mostly because they just don't know sniping, but any fool can tell that the best have the higher ratings and price. In the current system I suppose one that was particualr about this aspect of the game would eliminate the sniping units that were considered non-historical for that country, so the AI wouldn't choose them.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Charles
Yes like any aspect of the game if there is a will there is a way, as Deputy is interested in this aspect of the game he may wish to post a more detailed breakdown of what the various in-game sniper weapons accuracies, ranges and fire controls might be.
For Ranges I had a further thought. Assuming that the current 750 metres range is an average and assuming range is pretty much determined by magnification then with 500m as standard for open sights and giving an extra 75m for each degree? of magnification we would get ranges of about 650m for the german 1.5 magnification telecope, 700 for the 2.5s and 2.2s, and 800m for the 4.0 times. This is of course just speculation, I wonder how this compares to the real efective ranges?
Best regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Im sure the trajectory is flat enough for the ranges in question 750m.
Yes thats right information gathering, the rifle under the information gatherer was just there to hold it up.
And dont forget that the Japanese much prefered to wait until the Americans were directly beneath the tree and then plunge down bayonet first, This satisfied there preferennce for close cantact at the expense of extra casualties much better than long range snipers.
Best Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
Ive seen mention that the semi autos were common and troublesome. Also dont forget that as the Russians infantry were off the land ie peasants. The normal infantryman had most of the prerequisites required for a sniper anyway ie bushcraft and familiarlity with firearms ie good shots. I beleve that in wooded areas they were happy to build hides facing backwards, wait for the german infantry to pass them and then either hit the germans from behind or wait for rear eschelon troops. These Im pretty sure are infantry not snipers.
Best regards Chuck

[Heisenburg]

Haven't you ever heard of snipers in the Civil War? What makes you think the US Army would drop them inbetween that time?

For that matter.Even before the Reveloutionary war The first American armed service( The Marines.) Placed snipers in the crowsnests of the vessals they where charged with protecting. And snipers where a major part of the of some of the early battles of the reveloution. Freaking out the brits by taking out their officers while they stood in their smashing red coats in a line.
As for the arguement...What, I like turdals. >.>

[paulo]

Actually, I have found the sniper action in the game to be pretty realistic.